It's not the draw yesterday...

[wiw]

Firstly, what an utterly ridiculous idea that this is of Rafa's plotting. He's deliberately sabotaging our league campaign to get "more transfer control than any Premiership manager" ? How is he doing that exactly? By using the players at his disposal in a formation we all agree is our best? Did whisper in Torres' ear before the game to hit the post? Did he tell them all to bottle it second half? What he is asking for is no more than Ferguson or Wenger get - trust and backing from the board that chose to give him a multi-million pound contract - twice. The board should have little to no say in the matter - if they set him a budget he should be able to spend it how he pleases - then Rafa and only Rafa can be held accountable for the team. As for "more duds than successes", well, this is obviously debatable but, he recognises his errors and ships them out. A lot of his buys have imo been stop-gaps and have been sold on for profit. Anyway this is besides the point, you have your opinion on transfers I have mine


Your comparison to Moyes is pointless. Different club, different pressures, different expectations, different everything. They are at a totally different level - BELOW US.


The less said of your Houllier comparison the better. The 01-02 was a side playing at the peak of it's abilities imo, but we are nothing like the dark days of Houllier FFS. We are capable of, and have played football to a very high level this season. Sadly the form of individuals has held us back at times imo. Yes, Rafa has made mistakes this season, he is human.

And you don't think he learns from past mistakes? How about the difference of tactics between Utd at home last season and this season? A marked difference no? If you can't see the difference in our play between the two then watch the matches again. So Fergie learnt to not play players out of position? Big deal. In that game he failed to address the midfield which was quite blatantly the problem - from 20 minutes on it was obvious.

The fact is no manager is perfect but Fergie is one of, if not the best in the business. My best mate is an Arsenal fan and a lot of them are questioning Wenger the Messiah over baffling subs and lineups. How about we let Rafa finish what he started? We are not Chelsea

and I've not smelt them personally, but judging by her size I would imagine Lisa Riley's farts are deadly as ****

[Joe King]

Firstly, what an utterly ridiculous idea that this is of Rafa's plotting. He's deliberately sabotaging our league campaign to get "more transfer control than any Premiership manager" ? How is he doing that exactly? By using the players at his disposal in a formation we all agree is our best? Did whisper in Torres' ear before the game to hit the post? Did he tell them all to bottle it second half? What he is asking for is no more than Ferguson or Wenger get - trust and backing from the board that chose to give him a multi-million pound contract - twice. The board should have little to no say in the matter - if they set him a budget he should be able to spend it how he pleases - then Rafa and only Rafa can be held accountable for the team. As for "more duds than successes", well, this is obviously debatable but, he recognises his errors and ships them out. A lot of his buys have imo been stop-gaps and have been sold on for profit. Anyway this is besides the point, you have your opinion on transfers I have mine


Your comparison to Moyes is pointless. Different club, different pressures, different expectations, different everything. They are at a totally different level - BELOW US.


The less said of your Houllier comparison the better. The 01-02 was a side playing at the peak of it's abilities imo, but we are nothing like the dark days of Houllier FFS. We are capable of, and have played football to a very high level this season. Sadly the form of individuals has held us back at times imo. Yes, Rafa has made mistakes this season, he is human.

And you don't think he learns from past mistakes? How about the difference of tactics between Utd at home last season and this season? A marked difference no? If you can't see the difference in our play between the two then watch the matches again. So Fergie learnt to not play players out of position? Big deal. In that game he failed to address the midfield which was quite blatantly the problem - from 20 minutes on it was obvious.

The fact is no manager is perfect but Fergie is one of, if not the best in the business. My best mate is an Arsenal fan and a lot of them are questioning Wenger the Messiah over baffling subs and lineups. How about we let Rafa finish what he started? We are not Chelsea

and I've not smelt them personally, but judging by her size I would imagine Lisa Riley's farts are deadly as ****

Have you actually read what Benitez is proposing? He wants to get rid of the current chain of command in order to reduce wait time which seems common-sensical of course but surely you need someone with some business acumen to deal with negotiations? The current set up is Benítez recommends who is bought and sold to Hicks and Gillett plus Rick Parry, who then decide the player's value, what the club can afford – in relation to purchases – and divide the transfer budget accordingly. Thats more than what Ferguson has currently at United. Wenger's policy is a bit different.

In terms of telling Torres to hit the post, thats bordering on the insane. I'm talking about playing weird formations and making negative substitutions in the name of 'controlling' rather than winning. Can you explain Gerrard's substitution? A man who has the ability to get us out of a hole? Had that been Ferguson, it would have been about getting all the attackers on and winning the game rather than blaming 'crazy' decisions that he has no control over. Again, the word 'control'.

The comparison with Moyes is made to show how much progress the friendly neighbours have made in comparison to our stagnated progress throughout the Benitez regime. To spend £160m and not make much of an impact is pretty shocking and still the side hasn't resolved the problems that Benitez faced at the start of his regime.

Benitez is Houllier. Anti-football, baffling decisions, weird comments. I mean the whole Ferguson rant makes him look like a fool and makes Liverpool fans think, why? Why, from a position of supposed strength do you say words of such idiocy in order to pile more pressure on a mentally fragile side? Makes very little sense.

The difference between last seasons and this season United game, not much in the style of play. We played the same, last season, the side we unlucky not to get a goal after two goals were cleared off the line. I'm saying the difference was the United side who weren't in the best of shape with a mish-mash of a side which lacked fluidity that Ferguson's United have always possessed.

So you want Benitez to start what he wanted to finish, which is to finish in the top four again? We will struggle in the back end now with the lack of depth and character in our squad and next season once Villa and City spend again, we will be a side like Tottenham, getting all nostalgic and trying to live on the principle that a victory is when our nearest rival (United) lose.

[MrMichael]

Its a calculated risk Benitez has made in order to gain control. He feels he has the backing of the fans, well he has some backing and of course Dear old Tom, so whose to question him? The game against Wigan proved that he can whatever he wants and no one will dare question him as a Liverpool supporter especially substituting Steven Gerrard for Robbie Keane. Its as if he was saying to Parry or whoever, 'you want Keane, well I'll take off Gerrard then and here's two fingers as well'

See I just don't see that at all. And since when did Rick Parry become such an angel around Anfield? The man who's ****ed up more transfer deals than Graeme Souness playing FM? I Must have missed that meeting

"Who's to question him?" I take it you haven't read this or any other forum on the net, or any of the media articles written in the last few weeks/days? Of course he can do what he wants in terms of substitutions, he's the manager, any manager can do that, but if you really think he'd make a substitution not because of how he reads the game, but because of some political power-play, then imo you're just being really really silly. Rafa knows how he sees the game and makes those sort of decsions based on his footballing philosophy, he's done it plenty of times in the past 4 1/2 seasons (remember taking Gerrard off v Everton a while back) and will I'm sure continue for the rest of his career. Now by all means argue that his philosophy is wrong, that he's too cautious, too facused on fitness or too prepared to defend a 1-0 lead, or unable to devise certain offensive tactics, or even that he's simply lost the plot; those are all observations which I can see the grounding for, but the sort of mental conspiracy theories I've been reading like those above are nothing more than putting 2 + 2 together and making 57.63333

Do I think he can deliver the title ever at Liverpool? No. Do I think he should be given an extension? No, he hasn't proved himself in the 'bread and butter'.

I might disagree (or might not), but that opinion is fair enough. The rest, well I'm sorry dude, but no.

It especially amuses me to see some of the people who were roundly criticising keane earlier in the season when he was playing, and saying Rafa should drop him and play our best formation without him in it, now using Keane on the bench as a stick to beat Rafa with. Its ridiculous. Everyone is disappointed to see what looked like our first genuine title challenge in years fading away so dramatically. But anyone with anything between their ears should be able to look at what Rafa's been saying the last month or so, and realise that he wants success at the club as much as anyone. Whether he's capable of bringing it is another matter, but to suggest he's more interested in his own battles than those of the club on the pitch shows a disturbing lack of respect for a man who has done a lot for the club and brought us some great moments in his time here. I'm not sure if that time is drawing to a close, or if it should be, but I'm bloody sure he's not ****ing things up on purpose, and call shennanigans on anyone who says otherwise.

[Joe King]

See I just don't see that at all. And since when did Rick Parry become such an angel around Anfield? The man who's ****ed up more transfer deals than Graeme Souness playing FM? I Must have missed that meeting

"Who's to question him?" I take it you haven't read this or any other forum on the net, or any of the media articles written in the last few weeks/days? Of course he can do what he wants in terms of substitutions, he's the manager, any manager can do that, but if you really think he'd make a substitution not because of how he reads the game, but because of some political power-play, then imo you're just being really really silly. Rafa knows how he sees the game and makes those sort of decsions based on his footballing philosophy, he's done it plenty of times in the past 4 1/2 seasons (remember taking Gerrard off v Everton a while back) and will I'm sure continue for the rest of his career. Now by all means argue that his philosophy is wrong, that he's too cautious, too facused on fitness or too prepared to defend a 1-0 lead, or unable to devise certain offensive tactics, or even that he's simply lost the plot; those are all observations which I can see the grounding for, but the sort of mental conspiracy theories I've been reading like those above are nothing more than putting 2 + 2 together and making 57.63333

Do you really think he took off Gerrard because he was 'tired' despite there only being seven minutes to the end of the game? Its something to use to the owners, who lets be honest, aren't the biggest spectators of the sport so he could say anything about the side's performance. Getting these draws would obviously result in Benitez having the ability to tell the owners, 'if I had it my way' I personally hope he doesn't get it his way with the signings he wants i.e. Kuyt. Workhorses who don't possess any flair to break defences. Wanting to buy Quaresma and telling him he needs to work more on fitness and tracking rather than telling him he can become the best winger in the world by constantly beating his full back. By all means get rid of Parry but keep the way it is. Benitez has a horrid track record of transfers.

I might disagree (or might not), but that opinion is fair enough. The rest, well I'm sorry dude, but no.

It especially amuses me to see some of the people who were roundly criticising keane earlier in the season when he was playing, and saying Rafa should drop him and play our best formation without him in it, now using Keane on the bench as a stick to beat Rafa with. Its ridiculous. Everyone is disappointed to see what looked like our first genuine title challenge in years fading away so dramatically. But anyone with anything between their ears should be able to look at what Rafa's been saying the last month or so, and realise that he wants success at the club as much as anyone. Whether he's capable of bringing it is another matter, but to suggest he's more interested in his own battles than those of the club on the pitch shows a disturbing lack of respect for a man who has done a lot for the club and brought us some great moments in his time here. I'm not sure if that time is drawing to a close, or if it should be, but I'm bloody sure he's not ****ing things up on purpose, and call shennanigans on anyone who says otherwise.

The gripe everyone has is that when we are drawing games, put Keane on instead of Lucas More attackers increases the chances of winning a game rather than controlling the game. I didn't want Keane to come to the club mainly because I thought he was hot and cold - far too inconsistent and too liberal to play under Stalin like instructions from Benitez.

Since these contract talks, has Benitez been the same? I'll spin that around. Has the team performed in the same manner? Until Benitez stops playing guerrilla warfare with the owners, we won't come close to winning anything. Benitez is possibly currently plotting his next PR stunt which like others will end up with pie on his face.

[wiw]

In all honestly no, but if it gets Parry away from ****ing it up constantly it can't be a bad thing? There's a power struggle going on and you can't have that if you want to be successful. I'd rather Rafa was in charge of it personally. If he ****s it up then the buck obviously stops with him

Well I think the idea that he is deliberately ****ing things up is equally insane. Gerrard looked knackered and wasn't having one of his better games. It's not as if he brought on a centre back is it? He brought on Keane did he not? He had fresh legs

He hasn't made much of an impact? We're in the last 16 in the CL and we're still challenging for the title. Benitez is NOT Houllier ffs. He is anything but anti-football. Fergie, Wenger and Scolari make baffling decisions. And that is your take on it..I think he piled pressure on himself and deflected attention away from the team and Gerrard in what must be a ****ty time for him

I think there was a difference in style of play. We struggled to break down and stretch a resolute Utd defence last season. This season we played the early ball time and time again to disrupt their back line and reaped the rewards

And I want him to finish the rebuilding process of the club from top to bottom. We are challenging for the title. Players form and silly mistakes are letting us down at the moment. We are drawing games, not losing them, so let's build on that as I'm sure we will. We had a **** January last year and went on to win the majority of the remaining games, something we're more than capable of doing this year. Utd won't be fresh remember, they're struggling with injuries and have had a grueling year of fixtures. Tiredness will creep in, mistakes will happen. Our attacking play can only improve, and our defence is solid. Their defensive record can only get worse. The title race is far from over


oh and these 'baffling decisions' - can you not see the logic in them? We have a good defence. Rafa obviously trusts his defence. We were 1-0 up. It's not as if we went 10 at the back and all hands to the pump is it. Wigan had to come at us to score, so we played counter-attack

[Joe King]

I've said my piece on Benitez's proposed transfer policy.

Why take Gerrard off? Why not Lucas? Lucas wasn't having his best game, when he did I don't know. Playing Gerrard and Keane and Babel up front. Or is that too forward thinking for conservative and Calcio Benitez?

In the league, has Benitez made an impact? Nope, we are still the cannon fodder from the top four. I will guarantee soon as the Champions League arises again next month, the priority will be that again.

In regards to that press conference, you believe it piled pressure on himself, I personally felt it now asks more questions of the side which are still unanswered. The team now in the new year are under the huge microscope of the football public domain and won't cope with the pressure, they are bottlers.

Style of play is exactly the same as under Houllier - struggle at home, good away, lack consistency.

United are starting to get their players back. The major loss will be Rooney but they have Tevez who last time I checked was better than Keane or Kuyt. Title bid is over. Lets concentrate on the FA Cup and top four finish.

[wiw]

**** it, agree to disagree

[MrMichael]

Do you really think he took off Gerrard because he was 'tired' despite there only being seven minutes to the end of the game? Its something to use to the owners, who lets be honest, aren't the biggest spectators of the sport so he could say anything about the side's performance. Getting these draws would obviously result in Benitez having the ability to tell the owners, 'if I had it my way' I personally hope he doesn't get it his way with the signings he wants i.e. Kuyt. Workhorses who don't possess any flair to break defences. Wanting to buy Quaresma and telling him he needs to work more on fitness and tracking rather than telling him he can become the best winger in the world by constantly beating his full back. By all means get rid of Parry but keep the way it is. Benitez has a horrid track record of transfers.

Actually yes, given Benitez views on player fitness, I do believe that. What I don't believe is that in some zany way that could be a point to make to the owners - owners who he doesn't even know are still going to be owners in 6 months time, and who certainly aren't going to provide him with more funds in the summer if we fail to qualify for the CL. Surely you can see that the logic you are trying to argue with here is fundamentally flawed - Benitez wants more control at the club - is he likely to get that through success, or failure? Because managers in my experience usually get concessions when they are successful, and get sacked when they aren't.

You simply can't use this level of hypothesis and conjecture, based on all sorts of random assumptions, to make a convincing argument. "Getting these draws would obviously result in Benitez having the ability to tell the owners, 'if I had it my way'"???????????? Crazy statement mate, crazy.

The gripe everyone has is that when we are drawing games, put Keane on instead of Lucas More attackers increases the chances of winning a game rather than controlling the game. I didn't want Keane to come to the club mainly because I thought he was hot and cold - far too inconsistent and too liberal to play under Stalin like instructions from Benitez.

Fair enough. That's a view many people would agree with (apart from the Stalin bit, not aware of Rafa killing millions, but hey, must have missed that too), although plenty of successful managers over the years wouldn't necessarily agree. Football to the fans is about entertainment, and hopefully some success. To most managers its just about success, and if you get lots of that you can then try to be entertaining too. Mourinho for example, many people on here's holy grail of managers, has very much the same philosophy as Rafa in that regard, but that's something we rarely hear mentioned as it fails to fit with their agenda.

Since these contract talks, has Benitez been the same? I'll spin that around. Has the team performed in the same manner? Until Benitez stops playing guerrilla warfare with the owners, we won't come close to winning anything. Benitez is possibly currently plotting his next PR stunt which like others will end up with pie on his face.

Are the 2 things necessarily related? We picked up an awful lot of points earlier in the season, but were we ever playing that well, and dominating teams that much? How many people were on here talking about how lucky we were being and forcasting problems ahead? Quite a few from my memory. You could quite easily say that our recent run of results has brought us back to what is more like our true level, a good side, but probably not a championship winning one.

I'm no fan of the public statements Rafa has made in the last month or so. However I'm also no fan of Parry, or our owners, and am not at all confident in their ability to run our club properly. A selfish manager might just keep his mouth shut, preserve his reputation, and **** off to Madrid in the summer. The fact that Rafa seems to want to fight to get things right behind the scenes at the club means to me that he cares, and I don't see a simple correlation between all the off-field stuff, and our form on the pitch. Gerrard's off-pitch issues don't seem to have effected his form after all (which, btw, if you're really looking for the start of our current run of poor form.....).

This whole episode in the season has been a very disappointing one, and there's a lot of things I wish could have happened differently; however to lay the blame 100% at the manager's door because of conspiracy theories and supposition rather than footballing matters is something I will never buy.

[Elvoz]

Rarely does a piece of such length get it spot on with every point it makes. But this one does.

No it doesn't. What special significance does the fact that we've struggled against the promoted teams have?

We're also 5 points better off against United, Chelsea & Arsenal than last season, have 8 points more than last year after 23 games and are still in touch with the top.

FFS

mate you are one of the fans this type of piece is aimed at
no offence and i like your style looking for positives but open your eyes and see what is falling around you

lets hope that rafa does too

[Skillz]

Edited

[Craig_H]

Actually yes, given Benitez views on player fitness, I do believe that. What I don't believe is that in some zany way that could be a point to make to the owners - owners who he doesn't even know are still going to be owners in 6 months time, and who certainly aren't going to provide him with more funds in the summer if we fail to qualify for the CL. Surely you can see that the logic you are trying to argue with here is fundamentally flawed - Benitez wants more control at the club - is he likely to get that through success, or failure? Because managers in my experience usually get concessions when they are successful, and get sacked when they aren't.

You simply can't use this level of hypothesis and conjecture, based on all sorts of random assumptions, to make a convincing argument. "Getting these draws would obviously result in Benitez having the ability to tell the owners, 'if I had it my way'"???????????? Crazy statement mate, crazy.



Fair enough. That's a view many people would agree with (apart from the Stalin bit, not aware of Rafa killing millions, but hey, must have missed that too), although plenty of successful managers over the years wouldn't necessarily agree. Football to the fans is about entertainment, and hopefully some success. To most managers its just about success, and if you get lots of that you can then try to be entertaining too. Mourinho for example, many people on here's holy grail of managers, has very much the same philosophy as Rafa in that regard, but that's something we rarely hear mentioned as it fails to fit with their agenda.



Are the 2 things necessarily related? We picked up an awful lot of points earlier in the season, but were we ever playing that well, and dominating teams that much? How many people were on here talking about how lucky we were being and forcasting problems ahead? Quite a few from my memory. You could quite easily say that our recent run of results has brought us back to what is more like our true level, a good side, but probably not a championship winning one.

I'm no fan of the public statements Rafa has made in the last month or so. However I'm also no fan of Parry, or our owners, and am not at all confident in their ability to run our club properly. A selfish manager might just keep his mouth shut, preserve his reputation, and **** off to Madrid in the summer. The fact that Rafa seems to want to fight to get things right behind the scenes at the club means to me that he cares, and I don't see a simple correlation between all the off-field stuff, and our form on the pitch. Gerrard's off-pitch issues don't seem to have effected his form after all (which, btw, if you're really looking for the start of our current run of poor form.....).

This whole episode in the season has been a very disappointing one, and there's a lot of things I wish could have happened differently; however to lay the blame 100% at the manager's door because of conspiracy theories and supposition rather than footballing matters is something I will never buy.

I was. I got slated for it

I dont think Rafa is deliberately messing up to try and prove a point. But all i have on my side in that argument is logic. I just cant fathom that he'd genuinely do that. Joe King puts forward a few strong points, but they're circumstantial. However, they're still points to back up what he's suggesting, rather than simply making the contrary point and backing it up by just saying that it's logical.

I just dont know