Btw O'Neill and Rafa.

[BFG]

FWIW -

I was in Thailand during the late GH days and had no idea how bad things were - all I saw was the last few minutes of a Thai news channel showing results and photos of the lads on the back page the next day.
I was unawre of any other issues with the club at the time.

I can only note that what I am seeing at the club now are the worst I can remember.

Fair enough mate and the bit you've highlighted wasn't directed at you at all, apologies.

[andyhanrahan]

o'neills brand of football is pure ****e his celtic team which won a few titles was brutal to watch and from the few times i've seen villa they seem pretty similar. I know benitez's football isnt the easiest on the eyes but o'neills is eye gougingly bad

[FatTony]

And please, if anyone here thinks Houlliers team in '04 was a patch on this lot, they need their head removing from their anus as that lot would have got a spanking in the Bernabau, San Siro, Nou Camp, etc etc. If forums are indicitive of the quality of fan then as a collective the reds of '09 are no better than Chelsea, Man U and Spurs. I hope they're not.

Rubbish. Rafa is better suited to Europe, you can't argue with that, but Houlliers squad of players had more quality than this shower we have at the moment. Had Houllier purchased the likes of Lucas, El Zhar, Kuyt and Ngog, Rafa would've walked in and got rid sharpish. Is there any real difference in the above players and the likes of Smicer, Biscan, Pongolle, Baros? If Houllier had purchased those players 5 years ago we would all be here now saying how weak they were.

There is so much medicority in this squad its unreal.

[BFG]

Rubbish. Rafa is better suited to Europe, you can't argue with that, but Houlliers squad of players had more quality than this shower we have at the moment. Had Houllier purchased the likes of Lucas, El Zhar, Kuyt and Ngog, Rafa would've walked in and got rid sharpish. Is there any real difference in the above players and the likes of Smicer, Biscan, Pongolle, Baros? If Houllier had purchased those players 5 years ago we would all be here now saying how weak they were.

There is so much medicority in this squad its unreal.

Yes the difference is that Kuyt apart (who is a very good player) they're squad players who are still developing and the Houllier players you list played most weeks so it's a complete nonsense comparison because you don't like Rafa.

There are several world class players in the current squad - Reina, Gerrard, Mascherano, Alonso, Torres and he's bought these players on a small budget considering he's had to overhaul pretty much every position in the squad. For similar money Houllier bought half a Dudek, Biscan, Diouf and Cisse and the only real world class players he had came through the youth system.

This squad has so much more quality than Houllier's that it's unreal anyone would argue any different but that's your average internet Liverpool supporter these days I guess.

[murder_inc]

Yes the difference is that Kuyt apart (who is a very good player) they're squad players who are still developing and the Houllier players you list played most weeks so it's a complete nonsense comparison because you don't like Rafa.

There are several world class players in the current squad - Reina, Gerrard, Mascherano, Alonso, Torres and he's bought these players on a small budget considering he's had to overhaul pretty much every position in the squad. For similar money Houllier bought half a Dudek, Biscan, Diouf and Cisse and the only real world class players he had came through the youth system.

This squad has so much more quality than Houllier's that it's unreal anyone would argue any different but that's your average internet Liverpool supporter these days I guess.

In fairness though mate, he did bring in Sami on the cheap and Didi Hamman plus Kewell who ALL red fans at the time were sex weeing.
I do agree though with most of your points though.

[FatTony]

Yes the difference is that Kuyt apart (who is a very good player) they're squad players who are still developing and the Houllier players you list played most weeks so it's a complete nonsense comparison because you don't like Rafa.

There are several world class players in the current squad - Reina, Gerrard, Mascherano, Alonso, Torres and he's bought these players on a small budget considering he's had to overhaul pretty much every position in the squad. For similar money Houllier bought half a Dudek, Biscan, Diouf and Cisse and the only real world class players he had came through the youth system.

This squad has so much more quality than Houllier's that it's unreal anyone would argue any different but that's your average internet Liverpool supporter these days I guess.

Kuyt is not a very good player, thats a blatant lie.

Reina, Gerrard, Alonso, Torres. Mascherano has been extremely dissapointing this season.

Houllier had Hamman, Gerrard, Owen, Hyypia, Kewell, and Carragher (Yes I do think Carra is a world class defender). In their day and back then, they were our world class players.

Overhaul the entire squad? This is another area I disagree with. Whats he done other than replace Houlliers average/developing players for other average/developing players for cover? All he's done is renew like for like for the most part. El Zhar, Ngog, Lucas, Babel are the fringe players who are coming into the team. Other than Babel I gaurantee you that none of those players will develope into anything that is going to improve LFC, they'll fade away as Houlliers group did.

Its all opinions obviously and I don't think for one minute that Houllier would ever have won the CL, but I'm not talking about quality of the manager, but the quality each has brought in.

[BFG]

Kuyt is not a very good player, thats a blatant lie.

Reina, Gerrard, Alonso, Torres. Mascherano has been extremely dissapointing this season.

Houllier had Hamman, Gerrard, Owen, Hyypia, Kewell, and Carragher (Yes I do think Carra is a world class defender). In their day and back then, they were our world class players.

Overhaul the entire squad? This is another area I disagree with. Whats he done other than replace Houlliers average/developing players for other average/developing players for cover? All he's done is renew like for like for the most part. El Zhar, Ngog, Lucas, Babel are the fringe players who are coming into the team. Other than Babel I gaurantee you that none of those players will develope into anything that is going to improve LFC, they'll fade away as Houlliers group did.

Its all opinions obviously and I don't think for one minute that Houllier would ever have won the CL, but I'm not talking about quality of the manager, but the quality each has brought in.

Carra may very well be world class now but he was on his way out before Rafa came and put him in the middle, Houllier nearly ruined his career. Hyppia was a class signing, so are Agger and Skrtel.

Houllier spent going on £20mil on keepers, Rafa signed one of the best in the world for £6mil.

The full backs needed major attention Riise had gone to ****, Aurelio is better and Insua I'm sure will go onto be. Finnan only showed how good he was once Rafa came, Arbeloa is class for what he cost.

Houllier only signed one really classy, value for money midfielder in my eyes - Hamann and bar him and Gerrard the whole midfield needed an overhaul. Rafa's signed Alonso, Mascher, Riera, Benayoun, Garcia - All worth every penny and more.

Our strikers were crap when he came too and only Baros was really upto any sort of level imo (possibly Pongolle too) and we now have Torres, Kuyt and a 20 goal a season Gerrard to occupy the front two positions.

That's a whole team he's had to ship out and replace and he's done it with precious little money. As MurderInc points out Houllier signed some good players and won us some trophies so we should be thankful for that. Rafa's made us a major force in Europe again (the best team in European competition according to UEFA) and we've lost twice in the league all year so it's disgusting the way he's being talked about by some of our fans. Not exactly common traits of a squad with so much mediocrity it's unreal.

[FatTony]

Carra may very well be world class now but he was on his way out before Rafa came and put him in the middle, Houllier nearly ruined his career. Hyppia was a class signing, so are Agger and Skrtel.

Houllier spent going on £20mil on keepers, Rafa signed one of the best in the world for £6mil.

The full backs needed major attention Riise had gone to ****, Aurelio is better and Insua I'm sure will go onto be. Finnan only showed how good he was once Rafa came, Arbeloa is class for what he cost.

Houllier only signed one really classy, value for money midfielder in my eyes - Hamann and bar him and Gerrard the whole midfield needed an overhaul. Rafa's signed Alonso, Mascher, Riera, Benayoun, Garcia - All worth every penny and more.

Our strikers were crap when he came too and only Baros was really upto any sort of level imo (possibly Pongolle too) and we now have Torres, Kuyt and a 20 goal a season Gerrard to occupy the front two positions.

That's a whole team he's had to ship out and replace and he's done it with precious little money. As MurderInc points out Houllier signed some good players and won us some trophies so we should be thankful for that. Rafa's made us a major force in Europe again (the best team in European competition according to UEFA) and we've lost twice in the league all year so it's disgusting the way he's being talked about by some of our fans. Not exactly common traits of a squad with so much mediocrity it's unreal.

Our strikers were crap? Owen, Heskey (who Rafa wanted to get back a few months ago), Baros, Pongolle and Cisse. Its far, far better than our current attacking options.

The only reason we lose so few games now is that we frequently play with two holiding midfielders and have attackers who are much more prepared to graft and defend. This is also the reason why we draw so often. Theres not really any benefit to be gained if were not winning enough games is there? Thats his problem, defend first attack later.

You're referring to players as being better when Rafa arrived. Thats not my point. My point is that most of these players were better than we have now. This is not me saying Houllier is better than Rafa, just that for what he has spent, Houllier had more world class players in his match squad than we do now.

Precious little money? He's spent a bloody fortune.

[Reece]

Our strikers were crap? Owen, Heskey (who Rafa wanted to get back a few months ago), Baros, Pongolle and Cisse. Its far, far better than our current attacking options.

The only reason we lose so few games now is that we frequently play with two holiding midfielders and have attackers who are much more prepared to graft and defend. This is also the reason why we draw so often. Theres not really any benefit to be gained if were not winning enough games is there? Thats his problem, defender first attack later.

You're referring to players as being better when Rafa arrived. Thats not my point. My point is that most of these players were better than we have now. This is not me saying Houllier is better than Rafa, just that for what he has spent, Houllier had more world class players in his match squad than we do now.

Precious little money? He's spent a bloody fortune.

I disagree with that.

I'd say we have Reina, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres right now who can be described as World Class without much debate. Mascherano and Carragher could also be put into that bracket on their day.

Houllier had Gerrard and Owen for me. Maybe Hyypia and Hamann.

I appreciate it depends on what a person's definition of World Class player is, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would really think that Houllier had more of them in his squad that Rafa has now.

[FatTony]

I disagree with that.

I'd say we have Reina, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres right now who can be described as World Class without much debate. Mascherano and Carragher could also be put into that bracket on their day.

Houllier had Gerrard and Owen for me. Maybe Hyypia and Hamann.

I appreciate it depends on what a person's definition of World Class player is, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would really think that Houllier had more of them in his squad that Rafa has now.

Hyypia and Hamman without question IMO were world class. Kewell was absolute magic for Leeds. Thats 5 without question for me.

[BFG]

Our strikers were crap? Owen, Heskey (who Rafa wanted to get back a few months ago), Baros, Pongolle and Cisse. Its far, far better than our current attacking options.

The only reason we lose so few games now is that we frequently play with two holiding midfielders and have attackers who are much more prepared to graft and defend. This is also the reason why we draw so often. Theres not really any benefit to be gained if were not winning enough games is there? Thats his problem, defender first attack later.

You're referring to players as being better when Rafa arrived. Thats not my point. My point is that most of these players were better than we have now. This is not me saying Houllier is better than Rafa, just that for what he has spent, Houllier had more world class players in his match squad than we do now.
Precious little money? He's spent a bloody fortune.

If you think that then I honestly, truthfully think you're quite mental. Reina, Carra, Gerrard, Alonso, Mascher, Torres vs Gerrard and Owen.

We were talking about the overhaul in the squad so that's why Owen wasn't mentioned as he was never available to Rafa. The reason Rafa has had to overhaul the squad is because Houllier spent so poorly, especially toward the end of his reign and when you're citing players as being very good who have only been that since Rafa came and Houllier went then it's very pertinent to the discussion.

In terms of winning games Rafa has a better percentage win record than Houllier. 56.07% and 51.47% repspectively and bear in mind the amount of world class clubs we play now compared to a few years ago. In fact in terms of games won Rafa is one of our most successful managers EVER.

http://www.liverweb.org.uk/managerstats.asp

[Guest]

. This is not me saying Houllier is better than Rafa, just that for what he has spent, Houllier had more world class players in his match squad than we do now.

[FatTony]

If you think that then I honestly, truthfully think you're quite mental.

[BFG]

I can get carried away with the discussion from time to time.

[FatTony]

Reina, Carra, Gerrard, Alonso, Mascher, Torres vs Gerrard and Owen.

Reina, Carra, Gerrard, Alonso, Mascher, Torres vs Gerrard, Owen, Hamman, Kewell, Hyypia.

I can see an argument to say we have better players now, I am however of the opinion that GH did. Even so, I still think its quite close but what I keep hearing is how great this squad is now compared to the GH days. If anything its marginal.