Does the team have a small team mentality?

[Joe King]

Do the players and manager raise their game for teams like Madrid, United and Chelsea and can't replicate that performance for the likes of Stoke, Wigan and Hull simply because we are a cup team?

Does Benitez still believe he can play a chess match with Steve Bruce when all Bruce wants to play is Twister?

Or are we simply not good enough with our squad? We had Skrtel playing at right back because of the fear of the world beating Stewart Downing. When did Fergie play Vidic play at left back to stop Dirk Kuyt from playing?

Are the players and managers both at fault or is it just one of them?

[Exiled_red]

I posted something similar to what I'm about to say in another thread (so apologies if you've read it)

I think we do have the mentality of underdogs and it tends to suit us more because we aren't under pressure, take the Champions League 2005 every round we were expected to go out but we didn't because there was no pressure on us, it was almost as if the players could go out and think no-one expects us to win, if we do great, if we don't it was expected.

This mentality doesn't work in the league in general as we are expected to beat most teams and these are the games we struggle in (even if we do eventually win it's hardly ever comfortable). Compare this with Man Utd under Ferguson and Chelsea under Mourinho, they had this everyone is against us mentality (listen to Ferguson's comments to the press about the FA or Referees etc). They were built up to thrive on the pressure and it was vary rare that either of those teams bottled it. This the winning mentality that we lack.

[Tee]

I believe we have the mentality to basically try and control matches and then build on that by scoring goals and winning the game.

The main emphasis is to keep a clean sheet but certainly I do not believe we are negative - the evidence as far as I am concerned points to very poor levels of finishing when we create a fair amount of clear cut chances and should put games to bed before getting sucker punched. I blame the players.

[Mattshark]

I believe we have the mentality to basically try and control matches and then build on that by scoring goals and winning the game.

The main emphasis is to keep a clean sheet but certainly I do not believe we are negative - the evidence as far as I am concerned points to very poor levels of finishing when we create a fair amount of clear cut chances and should put games to bed before getting sucker punched. I blame the players.

I completely agree with you. We consistently create chances but we lack enough players who can actually consistently finish those chances.

[peekay]

Do the players and manager raise their game for teams like Madrid, United and Chelsea and can't replicate that performance for the likes of Stoke, Wigan and Hull simply because we are a cup team?

Does Benitez still believe he can play a chess match with Steve Bruce when all Bruce wants to play is Twister?

Or are we simply not good enough with our squad? We had Skrtel playing at right back because of the fear of the world beating Stewart Downing. When did Fergie play Vidic play at left back to stop Dirk Kuyt from playing?

Are the players and managers both at fault or is it just one of them?

I have not agreed with most of your posts ever since you lost faith with Rafa ( but I do understand why you feel that way) but this one is spot on. We have a small team mentality. Rafa's Valencia were always the underdogs. We always perform when backed into a corner. In fact some of our best European performances have come when we have been backed into a corner.

It is one thing performing to achieve a standard set by others. It is a totally different ball game when you have to set a standard and perform over a continuous period of time consistently to maintain that standard. To win a cup competition we need to perform better than others. To win the league during times when we are top, we need to compete with ourselves to raise our performance to make sure that we set apart as much distance between our competitors, which will act as backups during injuries or blips in form.

Of course having better players will help, but this is I feel one genuine defect of the man himself. His Valencia team were also similar, 5th in the league by December - winners in May.

[squaddie]

I think it comes down to the fact we dont have enough class players to be able to break down a team thats sits back and be able to put it in the back of the net.

Whereas if we if we play the likes of chelsea's/man u's they will come at us with all they've got, if thats the case we are highly proficient at absorbing most attacks and playing for the counter with the likes of Xabi (on a good day) playing over the top balls to anyone making an attacking run.

[peekay]

I think it comes down to the fact we dont have enough class players to be able to break down a team thats sits back and be able to put it in the back of the net.

Whereas if we if we play the likes of chelsea's/man u's they will come at us with all they've got, if thats the case we are highly proficient at absorbing most attacks and playing for the counter with the likes of Xabi (on a good day) playing over the top balls to anyone making an attacking run.

We still have enough quality to run over most teams in the league. As I said, we still havent displayed the absolute maniacal desire to win every game. Our players need to feel that every draw is a loss. We had that mentality in the beginning of the season and we seem to have lost it now. Thats the hallmark of champions.

Better players will always help but when it came to crunch matches in the league where we had the opportunity to announce that we have arrived, we have drawn.

[squaddie]

Yes but you have to admit getting the ball in front of goal wasnt the problem, its putting it in the back of the net. The fact we had keane scuffin most opportunity's, torres' injury etc made this a common factor in most games.

Put a world class finisher in that postiition and it would have made things alot easier.

[peekay]

Yes but you have to admit getting the ball in front of goal wasnt the problem, its putting it in the back of the net. The fact we had keane scuffin most opportunity's, torres' injury etc made this a common factor in most games.

Put a world class finisher in that postiition and it would have made things alot easier.

Agree with the fact that having a world class finisher would have made things a lot easier. But wasnt rafa's mantra that goals should be distributed throughout the team. In the first few years, he was always reeling out statistics about how Valencia did not need a recognized goal scorer.
To win the league, we need a recognized goal scorer and the goals to be distributed among other players. We dont have the second part. The only way we are going to get the second part is if more players push into the D area which we dont.

"Yes but you have to admit getting the ball in front of goal wasnt the problem"

I believe one of the reason for that is that many managers in the league have sussed out our playing style especially when Torres is not fit. They realize that instead of trying to get into a midfield battle with Mascher and Alonso, just let us have possession and hit us on the break or with set pieces.

Right now if we want to regularly challenge for the league with the current style of play and win occasionally two things need to happen:

(i) Torres and Stevie G should not get injured at all - This is unreasonable to expect.

(ii) Our scouting system should improve such that we are able to recruit world class attackers for around 5-10 million. Basically get a couple of Torres level attackers for sub 10 million so that we dont feel the lose of one or two of them due to injury. Given Rafa's record with attacking players I honestly dont see this happening.

Given that we need to change our style of play in which we attack as a unit and commit bodies inside the box. We defend as a team but we attack as individuals - and thats why we see too many damp squib performance in the league.

[Tee]

Maybe when we sign a few more world class players we can shrug off any 'small team mentality' that may linger.

It seems many fans are already split in opinion when it comes down to if Rafa has had a decent amount of money to spend. Is the most important aspect of his spending his mentality when utilising the funds at his disposal?

What I mean is, if Rafa knew he had a budget of 30 million, is he more inclined to spend that on a couple of 7million pound players and 1 bigger signing at say 16million?

I remember in the Summer that I was not alone in thinking that I would have liked to have seen only 1 or 2 new signings, but those being the real top level players we clearly still need to take us to the next level.

My point is, if Rafa was given a very generous budget, say 50 or 60 million, surely he would bring in two 20million+ players rather than a load more 7million pound players?

Only when we have better players can the team feel more self confident and prove this point on the pitch with better displays and matches where we actually put away the chances we create.

Apologies for waffling on a bit, I blame the NightNurse lol...

[peekay]

Maybe when we sign a few more world class players we can shrug off any 'small team mentality' that may linger.

It seems many fans are already split in opinion when it comes down to if Rafa has had a decent amount of money to spend. Is the most important aspect of his spending his mentality when utilising the funds at his disposal?

What I mean is, if Rafa knew he had a budget of 30 million, is he more inclined to spend that on a couple of 7million pound players and 1 bigger signing at say 16million?

I remember in the Summer that I was not alone in thinking that I would have liked to have seen only 1 or 2 new signings, but those being the real top level players we clearly still need to take us to the next level.

My point is, if Rafa was given a very generous budget, say 50 or 60 million, surely he would bring in two 20million+ players rather than a load more 7million pound players?

Only when we have better players can the team feel more self confident and prove this point on the pitch with better displays and matches where we actually put away the chances we create.

Apologies for waffling on a bit, I blame the NightNurse lol...

Apart from last summer I dont have big issues in the way Rafa spend the transfer money. He spent the first three years consolidating the squad - maybe he could have done it better but I think he went about it the right way. The summer after that I thought he went about it the right way by purchasing Torres and babel - hi risk hi rewards purchases which would take us to the next level. But I think last summer was a disaster - whether it is his fault or Parry's fault I dont know.

We needed a top class wide attacking player and he should have focused all of his energies ( or Parry should have focused all of his ) on getting one.