Gerrard praises Rafa's man-management

[Craig_H]

Maybe Babel's problem is in his head, but on the pitch his problem is that he can't control the ball properly, runs into groups of players emerging without the ball and manages to choose the wrong option more often than not.

I don't think an arm around the shoulder is going to fix that is it.

And out of interest, there seems to be an assumption that all it would take for Babel to perform is an arm around the shoulder and a bit of mollycoddling. Where does that come from? Who identified this panacea and WHY will it work?

I'm not saying it WILL work, but it's an option. Babel is a confidence player but also one who seems to be lazy and struggles to take instructions properly.

From that point of view, i dont blame Rafa for bombing him out, if that's what happens.

But if Babel was given a consistent run in the side, there's a chance he'd improve and regain some of the form of last season. If Babel had never performed for us, it'd be a different story but we've seen that he is capable of good stuff.

Someone like Harry Redknapp would probably persevere with him and get more out of him - Aaron Lennon is a good example of that.

Having said that, the trade-off with Babel, is that you lose out on the 'hard working' aspect, which he probably wont ever offer.

As i've said, i dont really blame Rafa, if he indeed doesnt have much time for lazy players. Babel's attitude wouldnt endear him to me much, either.

[dww]

The 'freakishly weird example' was Joey Barton, who i think most would agree, isnt really a typical case to look at. If the idea was put across that Joey Barton was a typical example of a PL footballer, then yes, i would dismiss that idea.

The point of using Barton as an example was because it was clear cut - no one would deny that however talented he may be/have been his attitude was such that he wouldn't fulfill his potential. The point being that in cases such as Babel's it is not obvious and we have no real evidence to separate the players general attitude from what his attitude is like under a particular management style.

[Neil Young]

I don't follow this, Craig. Are you saying that Rafa not nurturing/indulging someone like Babel indicates is a weakness in his man-management or a strength?

[Craig_H]

The point of using Barton as an example was because it was clear cut - no one would deny that however talented he may be/have been his attitude was such that he wouldn't fulfill his potential. The point being that in cases such as Babel's it is not obvious and we have no real evidence to separate the players general attitude from what his attitude is like under a particular management style.

I wasnt saying Babel's attitude would 'change' with a different management style, but if he feels that the manager relies on him and believes in him, it may give him the confidence to perform better.

Everytime he plays now, he just looks like he's going through the motions and like someone who knows he wont be here much longer.

I don't follow this, Craig. Are you saying that Rafa not nurturing/indulging someone like Babel indicates is a weakness in his man-management or a strength?

It could be either, depending on the way you look at it - i dont think it's as black and white as 'weakness or strength'.

The positive side to it is that lazy players with a rubbish attitude arent pandered to. Everyone knows that a certain mentality is required and that will benefit team spirit and unity.

The potential negative of it, is that you could possibly lose out on very talented players, because they lack the right 'work-rate' mantra. If you want a highly talented but possibly 'luxury' player who doesnt have the strength of character to cope with being dropped, being played out of their favourite position etc, then it's unlikely to happen in our circumstances.

It depends which you think is more beneficial to the team but possibly a balance of both methods is the idea. It's not an ideal world though.

[BrianF80]

I'm not saying it WILL work, but it's an option. Babel is a confidence player but also one who seems to be lazy and struggles to take instructions properly.

From that point of view, i dont blame Rafa for bombing him out, if that's what happens.

But if Babel was given a consistent run in the side, there's a chance he'd improve and regain some of the form of last season. If Babel had never performed for us, it'd be a different story but we've seen that he is capable of good stuff.

Someone like Harry Redknapp would probably persevere with him and get more out of him - Aaron Lennon is a good example of that.

Having said that, the trade-off with Babel, is that you lose out on the 'hard working' aspect, which he probably wont ever offer.

As i've said, i dont really blame Rafa, if he indeed doesnt have much time for lazy players. Babel's attitude wouldnt endear him to me much, either.

See I think your whole view of the situation is based on a whole load of pre.mis-conceptions.

The first is that you can afford, when you are trying to win trophies, to play a player who is not only under performing but under performing to the extent that it undermines the teams ability to win. His inability to even maintain possession is a real problem. Every time he loses the ball it's one less attack and more pressure that we have to run around the pitch trying to negate. You can only afford so much of that.

Harry redknapp does not need to win EVERY SINGLE game, redknapp does not face teams parking the bus where a player whose (pretty much) only strength is the counter-attack is meh. Benitez was cute with babel early on, whenever we were in a situation where we could counter attack, where there was lots of space for Babel to exploit and the defence was stretched he put him on. Babel was in his element and made brilliant contributions. That should have been the platform for him to kick-on. Unfortunately, he's shown time and time again that if you have to play possession football he contributes far less than Riera, you have to give the manager a problem and he hasn't given him enough of a problem. Xabi gave him a problem this year and that worked out. Babel hasn't.

You also assume that Benitez hasn't tried the arm around the shoulder thing. How do you know he hasn't? Do you know what is said on the training pitch? No you don't.

So let's say he did do that? Then what Babel goes out feeling 10ft tall and then trips over his feet, makes the wrong decision AGAIN. He then knows he's not 10ft tall. The confidence he needs is not that of the manager it's self-confidence and only his performances on the pitch will change that.

BTW I don't think Babel is lazy, he is just a kid who is a little bit out of his depth and hasn't matured mentally enough to know how to handle it. I think Benitez will give him one more year because sometimes it just takes a Eureka moment for it all to click into place. With luck sometime soon Babel will realize he is not the new Henry but is Dirk Kuyt with pace and tricks, if he can get his head around that, he'll be here for a long time.

[Craig_H]

How do we 'know' anything brian? This whole forum lives on rumour, opinion and speculation.

As for the stuff about Babel losing possession and what not - the problem with that, is that we KNOW he can produce quality performances for us, because he has done it.

It's nothing to do with the training ground, it's about being picked, getting a run in the side and having it clearly demonstrated that the manager has faith in you. None of those things have happened this season and for someone of fragile mentality, that will have a huge effect.

The numerous amount of times i've seen Babel fail to chase a ball down or track back tells me he is lazy.

[BrianF80]

How do we 'know' anything brian? This whole forum lives on rumour, opinion and speculation.

True enough, but when you have no evidence for OR against, it seems odd that someone would take a polarized position on it.

As for the stuff about Babel losing possession and what not - the problem with that, is that we KNOW he can produce quality performances for us, because he has done it.

And we KNOW Kuyt can control a ball first time. What does that amount to?

Almost all of his top performances have come in games where we are counter-attacking. In a counter attacking game he is brilliant. That distinction is important. He has not had many great quality performances when we've had to play possession football and unfortunately we haven't scored early enough often enough to change the complexion of the game to one that suits him.

So yes we KNOW he can produce quality performances but only when we are counter-attacking, is the way I would put it.

It's nothing to do with the training ground, it's about being picked, getting a run in the side and having it clearly demonstrated that the manager has faith in you. None of those things have happened this season and for someone of fragile mentality, that will have a huge effect.

Agree, but there are constraints aren't there. If Benitez was the manager at Tottenham I have no doubt he would do that. If he didn't have to tell Benayoun or Kuyt or Riera your on the bench for a 1/4 of the season he might consider it. But the fact is he can't put what's important for babel ahead of what's important for kuyt, Yossi and Liverpool FC. He has to get a balance and that balance requires more from babel to get those games.

The numerous amount of times i've seen Babel fail to chase a ball down or track back tells me he is lazy.

I started looking for that a while back when people were saying he's lazy and TBH 9 times out of 10, it could easily have been him not knowing whether to track back or stay ready for the counter attack. I've seen him a couple of times standing 4 yards from the ball in the penalty area he's seen a player run behind him and he's like staring at the ball like he's a rabbit in the headlights as though he's not sure whether to just run and welly the thing or keep an eye on the guy that could counterattack.

That said you may very well be right I'm naturally a skeptic and I'm not convinced he's lazy.

[jonymadness]

As for your last point - Robbie Keane, perhaps?

Seriously? did you see the utd game? how has he imroved?

IMO he has not improved since he left, he has scored 3 goals since Feb 1st and those were against Balckburn, Sunderland and Boro. he is at his level, mid table player.

[BrianF80]

Seriously? did you see the utd game? how has he improved?

IMO he has not improved since he left, he has scored 3 goals since Feb 1st and those were against Blackburn, Sunderland and Boro. he is at his level, mid table player.

hahahaha one more than N'gog and Dossena have managed in what 3.3 minutes of playing time.

[Neil Young]

I wasnt saying Babel's attitude would 'change' with a different management style, but if he feels that the manager relies on him and believes in him, it may give him the confidence to perform better.

Everytime he plays now, he just looks like he's going through the motions and like someone who knows he wont be here much longer.



It could be either, depending on the way you look at it - i dont think it's as black and white as 'weakness or strength'.

The positive side to it is that lazy players with a rubbish attitude arent pandered to. Everyone knows that a certain mentality is required and that will benefit team spirit and unity.

The potential negative of it, is that you could possibly lose out on very talented players, because they lack the right 'work-rate' mantra. If you want a highly talented but possibly 'luxury' player who doesnt have the strength of character to cope with being dropped, being played out of their favourite position etc, then it's unlikely to happen in our circumstances.

It depends which you think is more beneficial to the team but possibly a balance of both methods is the idea. It's not an ideal world though.

Oh right, that's what I thought. You want it both ways. As usual.

[Shaggy]

As for your last point - Robbie Keane, perhaps?

Absolutely never in a million years. I was on a stag do with a huge Spurs fan last week and he was lamenting Keane's "woeful performances" since he came back. "Not the same player", was his verdict.

[Neil Young]

Absolutely never in a million years. I was on a stag do with a huge Spurs fan last week and he was lamenting Keane's "woeful performances" since he came back. "Not the same player", was his verdict.

That's doubtless the lasting damage caused by Rafa's limited man management abilities.

[dww]

Absolutely never in a million years. I was on a stag do with a huge Spurs fan last week and he was lamenting Keane's "woeful performances" since he came back. "Not the same player", was his verdict.

That's interesting. The two Spurs fans I know are glad to have him back and seem to think he has done well.

[Shaggy]

That's doubtless the lasting damage caused by Rafa's limited man management abilities.

That's interesting. The two Spurs fans I know are glad to have him back and seem to think he has done well.

Well he's delighted to have him back but says the performances have been poor - "laboured, slow, over-complicating things" were his words.

Having seen him three or four times since he's gone back, I can only agree. He's scored three goals and at least one was a penalty.

[Craig_H]

True enough, but when you have no evidence for OR against, it seems odd that someone would take a polarized position on it

.

It's just my viewpoint on the topic fella.

And we KNOW Kuyt can control a ball first time. What does that amount to?

Almost all of his top performances have come in games where we are counter-attacking. In a counter attacking game he is brilliant. That distinction is important. He has not had many great quality performances when we've had to play possession football and unfortunately we haven't scored early enough often enough to change the complexion of the game to one that suits him.

So yes we KNOW he can produce quality performances but only when we are counter-attacking, is the way I would put it.

That's fair enough. I couldnt personally say with any conviction that Babel was only good for us when we played counter attack, but each to their own.

Agree, but there are constraints aren't there. If Benitez was the manager at Tottenham I have no doubt he would do that. If he didn't have to tell Benayoun or Kuyt or Riera your on the bench for a 1/4 of the season he might consider it. But the fact is he can't put what's important for babel ahead of what's important for kuyt, Yossi and Liverpool FC. He has to get a balance and that balance requires more from babel to get those games.

I never said there werent constraints, nor that rafa should play Babel. I've said on this very thread that i'd probably deal with Babel the same as Rafa has.

I was just pointing out the other way of dealing with him, and the potential impact of doing this.

I started looking for that a while back when people were saying he's lazy and TBH 9 times out of 10, it could easily have been him not knowing whether to track back or stay ready for the counter attack. I've seen him a couple of times standing 4 yards from the ball in the penalty area he's seen a player run behind him and he's like staring at the ball like he's a rabbit in the headlights as though he's not sure whether to just run and welly the thing or keep an eye on the guy that could counterattack.

That said you may very well be right I'm naturally a skeptic and I'm not convinced he's lazy.

I think part of it is laziness and also a part of it is a lack of footballing intelligence, which is another thing i think Babel has, and which i also feel works against him with Rafa. Which again, isnt me saying Rafa's wrong for it.