Fantastic Balance

[Mattshark]

The amount of supporter bias in this thread is most amusing.

Quell surprise.

[Craig_H]

Well we did beat them twice.

By that logic, Stoke can claim to be our equals

[Guest]

Supporter bias.

Funny Craig, but your stance on referees having been bribed up by Man. United does state that it's you who's the most biased individual in here.

Yeah Man. United won the league and will probably be considered the greatest team ever if they win the CL league. But based on the football they produced this season, it's something which is arguable. Same as when we won the famous 'treble' with Ged in 2001.

[Mattshark]

By that logic, Stoke can claim to be our equals

But they are Stoke and we are not so that argument is out the window

[DannyMan2006]

By that logic, Stoke can claim to be our equals

Maybe if they had matched us in both games I'd be willing to listen to that argument. But if it had been a boxing match the game would have been stopped well before the last round in our favour.

We out played them at Anfield and did so at Stoke, though it was much closer at their ground. Against Man Utd we were the best team in both games.

[Redspin]

I genuinely believe we are the best team in Europe, with the second best team being Man Utd. The English league is in the ascendancy at the moment -the Italian league is nothing, and we demolished the 2nd team in Spain. Although it kills me, I will watch the CL final next week knowing that if the Scum had the same qualifying rounds we had they wouldn't be there - yet, I know life isn't always fair, so they will probably (90% certain) win.

I think the balance of the current first XI is so much better than it has been since the 80's - solid defence, great midfield, and solid forward line. Our midfield can p1ss all over ManUres equivalent in any season - we have (and should always) bully the Scum midield with the players we have (even with Hargreaves @ 18m, Carrick @ 15m = 2 * joke).

BUT - IMO the only place we're lacking compared to the Scum is the attacking threats. We have SG, Torres, and Dirk Kuyt - and, to a lesser extent (owing to late selection preference), Benayoun. They have Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Berbatov.

Rooney I would liken to Kuyt - tracks back, scores goals - marginal difference. Berbatov is like Benayoun - a provider but not a regular - Berbatov slight edge. Ronaldo (an incredible poacher no matter where he plays ) is like a hybrid of SG (brilliant) and Torres (remarkable). Tevez is like a Kuyt - but more skillful and quite a bit more creative (IMO). So that's 4 Scummers being similar to 4 of us, but more effective unfortunately (Berbatov vs. Stoke for example, or the expectation that the Scum will score AND score again when behind, compared to the hope that the 'Pool will score to equalize).

So, to cut a long story short, what do we need from an attacking perspective???

IMO (apologies for the repetition), Tevez could be the solution for us winning the league. 20 years is a miscarriage.

If we were lacking compared with them in attacking threats, why have we scored more goals than them?

Only Ronaldo has scored more goals than any of our players and he, like Gerrard for us, takes penalties and free-kicks, so his total is always boosted.

Kuyt has scored as many goals as Rooney and more than Berbatov or Tevez - while playing on the right most of the time - and Torres has scored more goals than all three of them and would certainly have scored more than Ronaldo had he not missed nearly half our league games with injury.

In the same number of games we've outscored them, so how exactly can we be considered to be weaker than them in attack? It's not as if they've been playing brilliant, expansive football and routinely put teams to the sword. They've ground out 15 one-goal wins this season and scored an average of just 1.3 goals in their away games.

Their attacking strength - and their supposed attacking style of play for that matter - are media inventions. It's a bit like the old myths that West Ham always play good football or the Queen Mum had a lovely smile.

[dww]

If we were lacking compared with them in attacking threats, why have we scored more goals than them?

Only Ronaldo has scored more goals than any of our players and he, like Gerrard for us, takes penalties and free-kicks, so his total is always boosted.

Kuyt has scored as many goals as Rooney and more than Berbatov or Tevez - while playing on the right most of the time - and Torres has scored more goals than all three of them and would certainly have scored more than Ronaldo had he not missed nearly half our league games with injury.

In the same number of games we've outscored them, so how exactly can we be considered to be weaker than them in attack? It's not as if they've been playing brilliant, expansive football and routinely put teams to the sword. They've ground out 15 one-goal wins this season and scored an average of just 1.3 goals in their away games.

Their attacking strength - and their supposed attacking style of play for that matter - are media inventions. It's a bit like the old myths that West Ham always play good football or the Queen Mum had a lovely smile.

It would be interesting to see how many games each team scored 0 in. I think United are capable of unlocking more differing forms of defense more often than we are - even if we might over a season have scored more goals an equally important thing is to get the distribution correct between games.

A single goal in each game against Stoke would have counted more than two of the goals in the 4-1 win against United in terms of winning the league.

[Redspin]

I genuinely believe we are the best team in Europe, with the second best team being Man Utd. The English league is in the ascendancy at the moment -the Italian league is nothing, and we demolished the 2nd team in Spain. Although it kills me, I will watch the CL final next week knowing that if the Scum had the same qualifying rounds we had they wouldn't be there - yet, I know life isn't always fair, so they will probably (90% certain) win.

I think the balance of the current first XI is so much better than it has been since the 80's - solid defence, great midfield, and solid forward line. Our midfield can p1ss all over ManUres equivalent in any season - we have (and should always) bully the Scum midield with the players we have (even with Hargreaves @ 18m, Carrick @ 15m = 2 * joke).

BUT - IMO the only place we're lacking compared to the Scum is the attacking threats. We have SG, Torres, and Dirk Kuyt - and, to a lesser extent (owing to late selection preference), Benayoun. They have Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Berbatov.

Rooney I would liken to Kuyt - tracks back, scores goals - marginal difference. Berbatov is like Benayoun - a provider but not a regular - Berbatov slight edge. Ronaldo (an incredible poacher no matter where he plays ) is like a hybrid of SG (brilliant) and Torres (remarkable). Tevez is like a Kuyt - but more skillful and quite a bit more creative (IMO). So that's 4 Scummers being similar to 4 of us, but more effective unfortunately (Berbatov vs. Stoke for example, or the expectation that the Scum will score AND score again when behind, compared to the hope that the 'Pool will score to equalize).

So, to cut a long story short, what do we need from an attacking perspective???

IMO (apologies for the repetition), Tevez could be the solution for us winning the league. 20 years is a miscarriage.

I forgot to add that they only scored late on at Stoke because Ronaldo got away with kicking out at one of their defenders (fancy that!), who had had him in his pocket, before he took the bait and dived in on Ronaldo about 15 minutes from the end and got sent off. Only when their defence had to be reshuffled and they were down to 10 men did Manchester score. They looked like a team that would never score before that and the result owed far more to that than any expectation that they would score - they certainly never remotely looked like scoring before the sending-off

[Redspin]

I'm not sure if our first choice is better than their's. If both are at their best, i think their's is better, to be honest. For example, Ronaldo has had a mixed season, and scored 25 goals. Kuyt's had his best, and scored 15.

You're right about small margins, that's what separates champions from also-rans. Every team can point to a few incidents in a season and say 'what if...'

We're as close as we've been for 2 decades, mind.

Well our weakened team at Anfield completely outplayed their first-choice team in a very one-sided game and it was even more emphatic at Old Trafford when we had our full team out

Comparing Ronaldo and Kuyt's totals is a bit disingenuous. It's pointless including goals in all competitions as both teams played different opposition in Europe and domestic cups, so it's a false comparison. In the league, where both players played against the same opposition, Ronaldo has scored 6 more than Kuyt, leaving aside the fact that Ronaldo usually scores a high percentage of his goals with free shots from 12 yards, so a fair few of the difference will be penalties.

Not a bad return for Kuyt - often the target of the more fickle of our alleged fans - compared with a player supposedly the best in the world (obviously Gerrard is a far worthier player for that description).

[Redspin]

It's consistency that determines who's the best. If it was down to one-off matches, Boro could make a claim that they're better than us - but one look at the table tells you what a farcical claim that would be.

Indeed Fulham could use the same claim in comparison with Man Utd after outplaying them

[DannyMan2006]

Indeed Fulham could use the same claim in comparison with Man Utd after outplaying them

Fulham were the best team for about 35 minutes at Craven Cottage, After that they were ripped apart again and again, but Utd failed to score. In the other two games they played this season, Man Utd completely outplayed them and won convincingly.

So Fulham could not use the same claim............

[red g]

It would be interesting to see how many games each team scored 0 in. I think United are capable of unlocking more differing forms of defense more often than we are - even if we might over a season have scored more goals an equally important thing is to get the distribution correct between games.

A single goal in each game against Stoke would have counted more than two of the goals in the 4-1 win against United in terms of winning the league.

Avg 0 1 2 3 4 5
1 Liverpool 37 74 2.00 6 9 8 9 3 2
2 Manchester United 37 67 1.81 4 15 10 3 2 3
3 Chelsea 37 65 1.76 8 9 11 4 3 2

seems that way, we have score 3+ nearly twice as many times as them this year.

[DannyMan2006]

It would be interesting to see how many games each team scored 0 in. I think United are capable of unlocking more differing forms of defense more often than we are - even if we might over a season have scored more goals an equally important thing is to get the distribution correct between games.

A single goal in each game against Stoke would have counted more than two of the goals in the 4-1 win against United in terms of winning the league.

Up until the Sunderland game Man Utd had a far better goal difference and had scored more. But after that we went on an amazing run and scored goals for fun in all competitions.

Prior to that game Man Utd were the better team for me. Since that game we have been far, far better. Over the course of the season Man Utd have been better, hence the trophies they've won. But towards the end of the season we've been on another level.

Maybe you could put Man Utds displays down to tiredness, but ours personally have been fantastic.

[Craig_H]

Up until the Sunderland game Man Utd had a far better goal difference and had scored more. But after that we went on an amazing run and scored goals for fun in all competitions.

Prior to that game Man Utd were the better team for me. Since that game we have been far, far better. Over the course of the season Man Utd have been better, hence the trophies they've won. But towards the end of the season we've been on another level.

Maybe you could put Man Utds displays down to tiredness, but ours personally have been fantastic.

That's the key thing now, transferring our mentality and performances in the last 2 months from being 'good form' into just 'thats how Liverpool play'.

I still feel that early in the season, we paid for a pragmatic and conservative playing mentality and the driving force behind that is the manager's mentality. The biggest factor will be whether the last 2 months have simply been due to the fact that we HAD to go for it - or whether Rafa's finally changed his footballing mentality and will take this more attacking philosophy into next season and beyond.

If he does, i think we'll win the title.

[DannyMan2006]

That's the key thing now, transferring our mentality and performances in the last 2 months from being 'good form' into just 'thats how Liverpool play'.

I still feel that early in the season, we paid for a pragmatic and conservative playing mentality and the driving force behind that is the manager's mentality. The biggest factor will be whether the last 2 months have simply been due to the fact that we HAD to go for it - or whether Rafa's finally changed his footballing mentality and will take this more attacking philosophy into next season and beyond.

If he does, i think we'll win the title.

Have to get players who have the right mentality too. We need strong characters who will dig in when required, be that keeping their head when a chance presents or rolling up the sleeves and making last ditch tackles.

What is key though, is another Torres or Gerrard type of character. We have plenty of players in defence who will throw themselves in front of a ball. But when the team is not playing well, or things aren't going our way, we need another player who will demand the ball and strive to make something happen.

Someone who is confident in their own ability to go at teams and give us the edge. We have planty of good players, but only two world class attacking talents who will make the difference.