Why why why?

[Scratch]

Actually in retrospect I'm going to delete all of the childish squabbling nonsense on this page and leave the following warning if people can't let thread continue as discussions of a topic and/or make deliberately antagonistic posts they are going straight to the sin bin.

jesus wept -

Did i miss something??

[-V-]

Doesn't matter though Scratch because they won the title again and thats all that matters not how unhappy somebody might be on the bench.

You buy quality and you fit them in any way you can. We play 60 games a season, are you saying we couldnt accomodate another striker of top quality? Thats just silly. We drew games that we would have won if we had a top quality option to finish the chances

[dww]

We deleted some posts that were going off topic and getting a bit tiresome. Nothing to worry about.

[Craig_H]

Personally, anyone who thinks that a lack of depth was our downfall is seriously grasping at straws...we failed because we drew games we had chances to win...two games is all it took, two draws into wins...and we had the chances to do that. Drawing at some of the teams who park the bus is not a surprise, it happens to even teams like United. Conceding more than one goal to teams like Hull or Man City was terrible, and cost us points. Not beating Stoke home and away when we battered them cost us points. We had those games there at our mercy, and we let them slip...and therefore, we let the title slip.

So you dont think that having more quality to bring in, would increase our chances?

Ok then.

And, as you'll note, i have said i wish we had someone on the bench as good as Torres, but no player of sufficient calibre would be happy to play a bench role, so we would have to alter our game to allow them all to play, like we did when Keane arrived. Or we could do what united did, and stick a forward (Rooney) out on the left to accomodate a waster like Berbatov, and leave a player on the bench to get frustrated and leave like Tevez has done. And then sell your best player and replace him with Valencia and Owen, which is a massive step back for them.

I dont think them selling Ronaldo had anything to do with them having 4 quality attacking options. He didnt leave because he was fed up of competition for places.

I'd love for us to do what United did, as it won them the title. One title win would soften the blow if we had a Tevez type leaving because he got frustrated. I could certainly live with it.

If you think that having more quality in our squad wouldnt help us, or wouldnt have increased our chances last season, that's fair enough. That seems to be what you're suggesting and if it is, I disagree with that point of view.

[Craig_H]

Doesn't matter though Scratch because they won the title again and thats all that matters not how unhappy somebody might be on the bench.

You buy quality and you fit them in any way you can. We play 60 games a season, are you saying we couldnt accomodate another striker of top quality? Thats just silly. We drew games that we would have won if we had a top quality option to finish the chances

Put much more succinctly than i did.

I hope your 'thats just silly' comment isnt taken to be provocative

[FatTony]

Or maybe we just didn't have the run of the ball, after all against Stoke we battered them and just couldn't find the net, and the Hull and City games we were sloppy at the back, and squad depth couldn't have accounted for that, just sloppy play by normally reliable players...at very few points last season did we struggle to create chances, we just sometimes lacked composure/luck in front of goal...if we'd beat 2 out of the 3 (or 4, if we include Stoke home and away) like we really should have done, we would have won the league. We didn't tho, but not down to a lack of squad depth.

We were also very fortunate at the start of the season too though, Middlesborough 1-0 down until the 85th minute and won 2-1, 3-2 away at Citeh and we got an injury time winner, 2-1 down to Wigan until the 80th minute, Portsmouth away and 2-1 down until the 85th minute, grabbing a winner again in injury time.

Chelsea had a new boss who screwed things up, Hiddink's form over the entire season would've won them the league. The same could happen with Ancellotti but I feal that being a club manager first and foremost makes him different to Scolari.

Losing Alonso and Arbeloa and gaining AquaMaria (hasn't played since March, will be in a new league and is reportedly out for a couple of months) and Johnson does not make us stronger. It may turn out to be, but when we're talking about losing proven players at this level with someone who has no EPL experience and is returning from a long injury and someone who had a poor time when at Chelsea. They have to prove themselves to be better. Its all potential at the moment, what we had was proven, so at this time we're weaker until shown otherwise.

[FatTony]

Personally, anyone who thinks that a lack of depth was our downfall is seriously grasping at straws...we failed because we drew games we had chances to win...two games is all it took, two draws into wins...and we had the chances to do that. Drawing at some of the teams who park the bus is not a surprise, it happens to even teams like United. Conceding more than one goal to teams like Hull or Man City was terrible, and cost us points. Not beating Stoke home and away when we battered them cost us points. We had those games there at our mercy, and we let them slip...and therefore, we let the title slip.

It's a shame you have to resort to the "if someone doesn't see my point of view, they know nothing about football" line, cos it just makes yo sound like a cretin who can't stand up for himself, and instead resorts to petty digs.

And, as you'll note, i have said i wish we had someone on the bench as good as Torres, but no player of sufficient calibre would be happy to play a bench role, so we would have to alter our game to allow them all to play, like we did when Keane arrived. Or we could do what united did, and stick a forward (Rooney) out on the left to accomodate a waster like Berbatov, and leave a player on the bench to get frustrated and leave like Tevez has done. And then sell your best player and replace him with Valencia and Owen, which is a massive step back for them.

Thats brilliant

[Craig_H]

Thats brilliant

Good to see the irony wasnt lost on everyone

Re your previous post - i tend to agree.

The thing about late goals is some call it lucky, others say it's the sign of a team which keeps fighting and earns the luck.

I think that if/when we've become adept at doing that regularly across a number of seasons, it'll no longer be down to luck.

Our teams of the 70s-80s did it all the time, as did the mancs throughout the 90s and more recently too.

If it happens this coming season, it'll cease to be lucky and be more like 'thats just what Liverpool do'. Which would be a nice bonus. Until then, questions will remain.

Likewise, the fact that we won a freakish number of pens and saw an opposition player sent off so many times, cannot be relied upon to happen again. Having said that, the ridiculous 16 game run (or however many it was) that the mancs had, where they just kept winning 1-0 isnt something they should count on happening again either.

[DannyMan2006]

Good to see the irony wasnt lost on everyone

Re your previous post - i tend to agree.

The thing about late goals is some call it lucky, others say it's the sign of a team which keeps fighting and earns the luck.

I think that if/when we've become adept at doing that regularly across a number of seasons, it'll no longer be down to luck.

Our teams of the 70s-80s did it all the time, as did the mancs throughout the 90s and more recently too.

If it happens this coming season, it'll cease to be lucky and be more like 'thats just what Liverpool do'. Which would be a nice bonus. Until then, questions will remain.

Likewise, the fact that we won a freakish number of pens and saw an opposition player sent off so many times, cannot be relied upon to happen again. Having said that, the ridiculous 16 game run (or however many it was) that the mancs had, where they just kept winning 1-0 isnt something they should count on happening again either.

As you point out, other challengers also had some of this "luck" you keep reffering too. If anything I would class a team who scores with their one and only chance is lucky, or getting a result against a team who has 25 shots on target on your goal could be classed as "lucky".

Winning a game 1-0 after battering a team is not really "lucky", nor is winning a game late on after dominating play being "lucky".

I would say the only time luck could be attributed to a result is when two teams play an even game and a deflection or a bad decision by the referee/linsman decides a game.

[Guest]

Personally, anyone who thinks that a lack of depth was our downfall is seriously grasping at straws...we failed because we drew games we had chances to win...two games is all it took, two draws into wins...and we had the chances to do that. Drawing at some of the teams who park the bus is not a surprise, it happens to even teams like United. Conceding more than one goal to teams like Hull or Man City was terrible, and cost us points. Not beating Stoke home and away when we battered them cost us points. We had those games there at our mercy, and we let them slip...and therefore, we let the title slip.

It's a shame you have to resort to the "if someone doesn't see my point of view, they know nothing about football" line, cos it just makes yo sound like a cretin who can't stand up for himself, and instead resorts to petty digs.

And, as you'll note, i have said i wish we had someone on the bench as good as Torres, but no player of sufficient calibre would be happy to play a bench role, so we would have to alter our game to allow them all to play, like we did when Keane arrived. Or we could do what united did, and stick a forward (Rooney) out on the left to accomodate a waster like Berbatov, and leave a player on the bench to get frustrated and leave like Tevez has done. And then sell your best player and replace him with Valencia and Owen, which is a massive step back for them.

I thought that was lost to everyone else but me.

[FatTony]

Good to see the irony wasnt lost on everyone

Re your previous post - i tend to agree.

The thing about late goals is some call it lucky, others say it's the sign of a team which keeps fighting and earns the luck.

I think that if/when we've become adept at doing that regularly across a number of seasons, it'll no longer be down to luck.

Our teams of the 70s-80s did it all the time, as did the mancs throughout the 90s and more recently too.

If it happens this coming season, it'll cease to be lucky and be more like 'thats just what Liverpool do'. Which would be a nice bonus. Until then, questions will remain.

Likewise, the fact that we won a freakish number of pens and saw an opposition player sent off so many times, cannot be relied upon to happen again. Having said that, the ridiculous 16 game run (or however many it was) that the mancs had, where they just kept winning 1-0 isnt something they should count on happening again either.

I'd forgotten about that.

Personally I think the Ronaldo loss will hit Manu quite significantly and we'll be fighting it out with them for 2nd. Still think they have the edge but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see us finish above them. I think Chelsea will storm it myself.

The best we can hope for is that Torres and Gerrard remain fit and AquaMaria hits the turf running. If that happens, we will have a shout...with a little luck of course.

[Craig_H]

As you point out, other challengers also had some of this "luck" you keep reffering too. If anything I would class a team who scores with their one and only chance is lucky, or getting a result against a team who has 25 shots on target on your goal could be classed as "lucky".

Winning a game 1-0 after battering a team is not really "lucky", nor is winning a game late on after dominating play being "lucky".

I would say the only time luck could be attributed to a result is when two teams play an even game and a deflection or a bad decision by the referee/linsman decides a game.

What i meant was, scoring a number of winners in the last couple of minutes - when that happens say, 5 or 6 times, i think it's a tad fortunate from the point of view that, when time is running out rapidly, it's rare that you can just KEEP nicking the winner.

How often has it happened so often for us in one recent season?

Wigan at home, Boro at home, Pompey away, City away, Fulham away etc...when you get something go for you that happens so rarely ordinarily, i'd say fortune has smiled on you a little Long may it continue.

[Craig_H]

I'd forgotten about that.

Personally I think the Ronaldo loss will hit Manu quite significantly and we'll be fighting it out with them for 2nd. Still think they have the edge but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see us finish above them. I think Chelsea will storm it myself.

The best we can hope for is that Torres and Gerrard remain fit and AquaMaria hits the turf running. If that happens, we will have a shout...with a little luck of course.

Yep, i think pretty much everything will rest on Torres & Gerrard playing in the vast majority of the 38 league games for us.

If they do that, and if our mentality from the last 10 league games of last season remains, i think we'll win it.

[dww]

I do think that as has been the case in the last few years little things will decide the title. For my money the lack of squad depth has two obvious effects:
1/ You have less options to try. if one player is having a 'mare then we don't have that many choices and tend to have to keep playing them.
2/ Over a season you have to play some players when they are tired. While the performance effects are probably not huge sometimes all it takes is a bit of extra sharpness to make all the difference both in attack and defense.

There is also the fact that you can protect the injury prone likes of Gerrard and Torres better if you have more goal threats in the team, for example.

I think that one aspect where the loss of Ronaldo will be significant is at set pieces he was one of the few players who when they got a freekick near goal, even out wide, was always a threat. getting 'cheap' goals when on offer is a real bonus when going for the title and we don't make enough of our set pieces in this regard.

I don't think that there is much fortune in knicking late winners to be honest. I believe most goals go in in the last 15 minutes and most goals are scored (obviously) by the better teams therefore it seems likely that the better teams are likely to win a good number of games with late goals. Added to that the better teams are more likely to tire out lesser teams and thus gain a goal late on through opponents mistakes.

[Craig_H]

It's not nicking late winners that i meant was fortunate. But doing it over and over again, a number of times that's way beyond what normally happens, is what i was referring to.

I tend to think that if something happens, which very rarely happens, there's a touch of good fortune smiling on you.