Houllier - summer 2002, Benitez - summer 2006

[Guest]

Yeah good call kurt. We've been creating loads of chances and kept possession really well. All we need to do is put that ball into the net more often. That's the difference this season, not the odd silly goal that we concede.

[Bob]

Whatever, I've anaylised and evaluated in my original post, you've both just sat there like grinning idiots, waved your Rafa flag, posted a big red smilie and laced it in a heavy dose of misplaced sarcasm.

When you're ready to wake up, open your eyes and realise Benitez doesn't **** Gold, let me know, and we'll have a proper discussion.

Pop over to SCM and you'll see the level of in depth footballing debate is infinitely superior.

Why don't you.

[MrMichael]

In the summer of 2002, after the World Cup in Japan and Korea, Houllier could have, and definitely should have, bought Anelka and Duff, instead, he went for that catastrophic trio, of Diouf, Diao and Cheyrou, two of which we still haven't managed to fully release off our books.

Ultimately these tranfer decisions, cost him his job.

Had he gone with Anelka and Duff, there's a fair chance he'd still be in charge today, such was the importance of that summer spending spree.

How does this concern Rafa ?

Well, this summer Rafa let Hamann and Cisse leave, he probably should've kept hold of both. We're going to miss Djib's goals, no doubt about that, and we've already seen occasions this season, (such as the last half hour against Galatasaray) that were made for Hamann's style.

The crucial thing is, if Rafa insisted on replacing these two players, it is essential he improves the squad with the replacements.

Aurelio, Bellamy, Pennant and Gonzales aren't good enough to mount a title challenge with, that's the honest truth, the majority of them were bought because of a discounted price pinned to their shirt. I genuinely can't see anything in Aurelio to suggest he's worth having at the club, we've already got two left backs and two left wingers, very odd decision from Rafa. I suppose he was free, *shrugs*.

Rafa should've have gone for quality, not quantity (our squad's already too big), this summer. A bit of extra cash would've secured a long term transfer target, such as Daniel Alves or Guily.

We're out the title race and it's only mid October, it's depressing, yet not unfamiliar, I'd take fourth place now if it was offered, without question.

So, the question I pose is this; could Rafa's transfer aquisitions in the summer of 2006 have an equally influential impact as Houllier's summer of 2002 ?

No, I really don't think so. I'm as pissed off and depressed as anyone about the way we've started this season, but I really see that as being down to our currently established players not performing rather than because Rafa has made bad buys. Gerrard, Alonso, Reina and Carra amongst others have been significantly under par so far this season, and I think that has had far more to do with our dubious form than the lack of impressio Pennant, Bellamy and Aurelio have made so far.

To compare the acquisitions of Kuyt, Bellamy, Pennant, Aurelio, Gonzales and Paletta to those of Diouf, Diao and Cheyrou in short sighted. Ther terrible trio were all plucked from relative obscurity for massively overinflated fees, and none of them ever looked to have the game for the english league. In this recent case we bought 2 established premiership players, atleast one of whom (Bellamy) has proven for several other league clubs that he can be a force in the league. Then there's Kuyt who looks to be a quality purchase, while Gonzales really hasn't had a chance yet and is only a young kid really.

As for the Cisse thing, I doubt we'll agree on that one; Cisse is the most frustrating player I think I've ever seen, and this constant repetition of "19 goals" does my head in... Heskey once scored 22 in a season for us you know. And besides, he has a broken leg, so it wouldn't change things at the moment anyway. IMO Kuyt and Bellamy in for Morientes and Cisse is a significant improvement, and we will see that in future.

Pennant I am worried about, mainly becuase we payed far too much for the lad. He's very raw and certainly not the solution as stands currently, but I have yet to be convinced that if we'd spent £13m on Alves things would currnetly be much better, or that people wouldn't be on here now calling him a waste of money too. Aurelio, well, not convinced at all, but at least its different from Traore.

As I said, I'm pretty depressed too at the moment, but I think its a little early to conclude that this summer was anything like 2006. In Agger and Kuyt we look to have brought in some real quality, and I have faith that Bellamy and Gonzales will come good when the players at the centre of our team remember how to stamp some authority and class on these games, and allow the new squad members to show what they can do.

[anfieldanfield]

No, I really don't think so. I'm as pissed off and depressed as anyone about the way we've started this season, but I really see that as being down to our currently established players not performing rather than because Rafa has made bad buys. Gerrard, Alonso, Reina and Carra amongst others have been significantly under par so far this season, and I think that has had far more to do with our dubious form than the lack of impressio Pennant, Bellamy and Aurelio have made so far.

To compare the acquisitions of Kuyt, Bellamy, Pennant, Aurelio, Gonzales and Paletta to those of Diouf, Diao and Cheyrou in short sighted. Ther terrible trio were all plucked from relative obscurity for massively overinflated fees, and none of them ever looked to have the game for the english league. In this recent case we bought 2 established premiership players, atleast one of whom (Bellamy) has proven for several other league clubs that he can be a force in the league. Then there's Kuyt who looks to be a quality purchase, while Gonzales really hasn't had a chance yet and is only a young kid really.

As for the Cisse thing, I doubt we'll agree on that one; Cisse is the most frustrating player I think I've ever seen, and this constant repetition of "19 goals" does my head in... Heskey once scored 22 in a season for us you know. And besides, he has a broken leg, so it wouldn't change things at the moment anyway. IMO Kuyt and Bellamy in for Morientes and Cisse is a significant improvement, and we will see that in future.

Pennant I am worried about, mainly becuase we payed far too much for the lad. He's very raw and certainly not the solution as stands currently, but I have yet to be convinced that if we'd spent £13m on Alves things would currnetly be much better, or that people wouldn't be on here now calling him a waste of money too. Aurelio, well, not convinced at all, but at least its different from Traore.

As I said, I'm pretty depressed too at the moment, but I think its a little early to conclude that this summer was anything like 2006. In Agger and Kuyt we look to have brought in some real quality, and I have faith that Bellamy and Gonzales will come good when the players at the centre of our team remember how to stamp some authority and class on these games, and allow the new squad members to show what they can do.

Some valid points, and not a smilie in sight, well in, Mike.

You mention Kuyt and Agger as two players who 'have brought in some real quality', I totally agree with this statement, and there's a considerable reason why this is the case. It's Because they were Rafa's first choice targets.

Unfortunately, Pennant was not a first choice target, he was behind a good two or three, far, far better footballers, Alves and Guily being the top two. I'm not saying Pennant's an awful player, he's not, but he's not good enough for a side looking for a title challenge. Just a quick sta for you, Pennant's career record stands at a goal every 14 games, about three a season. For an attacking midfielder, that's woeful. Seven million is a staggering amount to pay for squad player, are we agreed on this ? As for Aurelio, well I'm sorry, but he's a very, very tepid footballer and he shouldn't be at the club.

I take your point regarding Gonzales, so far, although at time's he's offered a real curate's egg of a performance, he has looked like a genuine goal threat. I'm still far from convinced that he's anywhere near as good as J.Cole, Ronaldo, Hleb etc, but I'm prepared to give him time.

Regarding Cisse and Bellamy, I have never once suggested Bellamy isn't a more complete player, however he offers no where near the goal threat Djib does. Essentially they're both moany, erractic, pacey tatooed strikers who have no concept whatsoever of the offside rule. Only difference is, Djib scored goals. And (despite what some ridiculously naive and simplistic posters will argue), important ones at that.

FA Cup final, pen in Istanbul, the Super Cup, I could go on....

To sum up, in a round about way, manager's tenure generally rise and fall as a result of the purchases they make. And the past summer has been the worst (in terms of transfers) since 2002, in my opinion.

I dont buy any of that bollocks that Rafa 'hasn't been backed by the board'. He's had massive amounts of money to spend.

I genuinely expected more after our progress last season, it's a real shame.

If offered, I'd take the Carling Cup trophy and a fourth placed finish right now.

You ?

[Rich]

The "fact" remains that it is still far too early to write off the summers signings to be the worst since 2002 - sorry, AA, that is just plain daft.

We've had a poor start - yet our home form is good. We have established 'stars' underperforming, and probably a little too much chopping and changing, but it's still early doors.

This is a discussion that (at the earliest) we should be having in the new year.

[anfieldanfield]

We've had a poor start - yet our home form is good. We have established 'stars' underperforming, and probably a little too much chopping and changing, but it's still early doors.

This is a discussion that (at the earliest) we should be having in the new year.

Should we just shut down the forums until then, then ?

[Rich]

Not at all, but the way you are talking, you are basically saying the signings are ****.

Why not say, that you aren't convinced and that they be a very costly mistake!


....and just because I know you like them -

[MrMichael]

Some valid points, and not a smilie in sight, well in, Mike.

You mention Kuyt and Agger as two players who 'have brought in some real quality', I totally agree with this statement, and there's a considerable reason why this is the case. It's Because they were Rafa's first choice targets.

Unfortunately, Pennant was not a first choice target, he was behind a good two or three, far, far better footballers, Alves and Guily being the top two. I'm not saying Pennant's an awful player, he's not, but he's not good enough for a side looking for a title challenge. Just a quick sta for you, Pennant's career record stands at a goal every 14 games, about three a season. For an attacking midfielder, that's woeful. Seven million is a staggering amount to pay for squad player, are we agreed on this ? As for Aurelio, well I'm sorry, but he's a very, very tepid footballer and he shouldn't be at the club.

I take your point regarding Gonzales, so far, although at time's he's offered a real curate's egg of a performance, he has looked like a genuine goal threat. I'm still far from convinced that he's anywhere near as good as J.Cole, Ronaldo, Hleb etc, but I'm prepared to give him time.

Regarding Cisse and Bellamy, I have never once suggested Bellamy isn't a more complete player, however he offers no where near the goal threat Djib does. Essentially they're both moany, erractic, pacey tatooed strikers who have no concept whatsoever of the offside rule. Only difference is, Djib scored goals. And (despite what some ridiculously naive and simplistic posters will argue), important ones at that.

FA Cup final, pen in Istanbul, the Super Cup, I could go on....

To sum up, in a round about way, manager's tenure generally rise and fall as a result of the purchases they make. And the past summer has been the worst (in terms of transfers) since 2002, in my opinion.

I dont buy any of that bollocks that Rafa 'hasn't been backed by the board'. He's had massive amounts of money to spend.

I genuinely expected more after our progress last season, it's a real shame.

If offered, I'd take the Carling Cup trophy and a fourth placed finish right now.

You ?

I think Bellamy will in the end score as many as Cisse, plus will add more to overall team play, we'll have to wait and see on that one. For periods at Newcastle, and at Blackburn, he really impressed me with his dynamism in a way I've never seen Cisse play.

The Pennant fee was ridiculous, what we've got is a young-ish squad player with a lot still to learn, the £2.5m Brum payed Arsenal for him looks about fair to me. May come good but definately squad player at best currently from what I've seen. He isn't responsible for the fee of course, but it adds extra pressure I think he could do without. Alves looks a class player in Spain, but the money they wanted was stupid really.

Aurelio hasn't impressed me at all apart from the odd good cross and a decent dead ball strike or two. However I'm still prepared to give him time to adapt, it was a free and he was very good for Rafa in Spain. He shouldn't have been playing as much as he has either, the injury to Riise and Kewell's protracted absence have been unfortunate in that he has sometime played by default, rather than because Rafa thinks he is the best option. And, as I said, so far I'd still rather have him than Traore.

It looks like this will be a difficult season. I still think we'll finish on around 70 points and do well in some cups. We do have a stonger squad that last season when really the 2 unbeaten runs covered over some cracks that were evident in the Benfica tie, or even the FA cup final, but the blend is more complicated and we are still missing that one genuinely creative attacking midfielder to unlock defences on really tough days, (an Aimar, Zola, Bergkamp etc). I think this season could be the one to weed out the things with our squad that still need fixing and finally get Benitez mind sorted for a genuine challenge next year.... not half frustrating as we were hoping that was last season, but we have to admit that we don't yet play football like a championship winning team.

[alunevans]

Is Bellamy better than Cisse though ? That may be the more relevant question.

In my view yes, and I'm not a Bellamy fan. Cisse was an absolute waster who had the work ethic of Bagpuss.

Cisse v Bellamy is not the question for me.

The question for me is why we blew 14 million quid on two players who aren't good enough for a top club instead of just settling on one who is.

For me, Kuyt apart, we have bought the right positions, but the wrong players.

Bellamy and Pennant have a long history of playing in the Premiership, and so I'd formed judgements on them before they came and was pretty upset that we were in for them. I've seen nothing to change my mind, despite today's goal.

Aurelio is, as Molby put it on the radio after the game "not good enough for Liverpool and never will be".

Gonzales may or may not be good enough, but if he is why isn't he in the team?

Our squad is as far away off a title challenge as it was last season in my view. Except we've blown a load of money on players that I'm pretty sure will have to be moved on - probably at a loss.

I'd have rather kept our money in our pocket than splash out on players who just don't have the quality required by a top football club.

[Craig_H]

Aurelio, Bellamy, Pennant and Gonzales aren't good enough to mount a title challenge with, that's the honest truth, the majority of them were bought because of a discounted price pinned to their shirt.

It's only a minor point, but whilst i'd describe Pennant as many things, 'discounted' isnt one of them mate.

[Craig_H]

We're still 8 points behind United and if we beat them next week it'll be down to 5.

That's the problem though, 'if' we beat everyone, we'd win the league.

IF we'd beaten Blackburn, or Everton, or Bolton or Chelsea or Sheffield United, we'd be closer to the top.

But ifs arent good enough. We DIDNT beat any of them.

And i'm not about to put my mortgage on us going to OT and winning either...if someone offered me a draw now, i'd bite their hand off.

[Craig_H]

Rafa knows it and all will be corrected soon.

That almost implies that he CAN sort it, but has thus far CHOSEN not to.

Which is obviously not true. He's been trying to sort it out and still hasnt.

How can we be convinced that he'll correct it soon?

8 points and growing....

[kurtangle01]

I can't believe that after 8 Premiership matches some of our fans are saying that Bellamy isn't as good as Cisse! Give him a chance FFS!!

What good would Cisse have been to us now with a broken leg?

[Rich]

How about a partnership of Bellamy AND Cisse....

[Craig_H]

I'm not saying Cisse is better, but let's put it this way, i cant really see Bellamy scoring 19 goals this season, if i'm being honest.