Spurs v Liverpool Match Thread

[DannyMan2006]

How did it not work?

The part of the game when we started looking dangerous, was when we had Lucas, Mascher, Kuyt and Yossi as the midfield four.

By my watch we had Gerrard, Lucas, Mascher and Yossi in midfield and Voronin and Torres up front. In fact we looked even better after Gerrard pointed Lucas to advance ahead of him.

[Craig_H]

By my watch we had Gerrard, Lucas, Mascher and Yossi in midfield and Voronin and Torres up front. In fact we looked even better after Gerrard pointed Lucas to advance ahead of him.

Benayoun came on a good 10-15 mins before Voronin.

So for a period, we had the lineup i posted in midfield. And we looked more effective and dangerous.

[el matador]

How did it not work?

The part of the game when we started looking dangerous, was when we had Lucas, Mascher, Kuyt and Yossi as the midfield four.

did you see the bit when gerrard moved back centrally even though he was put out to the right hand side when voronin came on ?

That's when we started to play better it had very little to do with lucas all of a sudden getting a hold of the game and driving us forward.

If you doubt what i say just look at mascherano when things get tough. He starts to ignore lucas and tries to make the play himself even though that is what lucas is supposed to do.

When the chips are down he doesnt trust lucas. Neither do I.

Its sad when we have to sit here and say negative things about our own players. Its not that i have anything against lucas or babel or anyone else but i think football is about levels - of ability.

You find your level and stick to it. Some of us look really decent when playing sunday league but put those same people in semi pro and they dont look so effective and some will look terrible.

The same applies to pro players, they need to find a level at which they are comfortable and stick to it. I dont think Lucas is comfortable at the level at which we play. He isnt the only one as i think we have two or three more.

[Craig_H]

I didnt say it was because of Lucas. But things WERE working better with that midfield lineup.

[el matador]

what i was trying to say was that i think it worked better when lucas was out of the way and when gerrard took over.

[Marky]

Tell you what, I'd almost forgotten what it was like to lose. I'd forgotten how much **** performances hurt. I spent almost all of that game, from about the 10th minute onwards, in a ****ing foul mood and by the end was ready to smash something up. Sometimes I hate football. **** off.

Yep, i'm still in a rotten mood, you get yourself so up for the first game and we ended up putting in such a shambolic performance. It was a nothing performance. We didn't give a **** and were rightly rolled over.

[FatTony]

I've been majorly on Degen's case because he's looked absolute garbage thus far, but the fact is he's an international footballer with some experience. We had three largely untried kids on the bench today - three kids, incidentally, none of whom I think are good enough. Kelly might turn out to be a player in fairness - he looks good - but a few months ago he was playing for Huddersfield.

Either way, Degen and Ngog haven't shown anything for us so it just goes to show how thin on quality the squad is. Depressing.

It is depressing. People keep talking about Spearing and I don't see anything better than Thomson or Warnock in ability. I think people are so hungry for a homegrown player with talent that its clouding their judgement. If he's the only player we have that people are excited about its a poor reflection of the talent with have in the academy.

We've sold two players and seem to have taken 4 steps back. Preseason has been piss poor and fair enough its preseason, but the way we played today in the real world was very poor. This wasn't a performance where we were both scrappy, or the inferior team simply showed more hunger, for lots of periods Spurs passed us off the park and looked to have far more quality. If it wasn't for Reina this could've been a heavy defeat.

We have probably a little over 50% of a starting 11 which could be good enough for a title winning side. Reina, Carra, Mascher, Benny, kuyt, Gerrard and Torres. I'd class Reina, Carra, Mascher, Gerrard and Torres as the cream of a title winning side and Benny and Kuyt as the fillers which every team has. The fillers are guys with good technical ability who will never set the world alight but do a good job. The problem we have now is that we are one or two players missing from the cream and a 3 or so fillers with the technical ability to play in a side pushing for the title. Johnson is a decent prospect and I expect him to make the grade and I also like the look of Insua. Aquilani I'm 50/50 on.

Babel, Riera, Skrtel, Agger, Spearing, Ngog, Plessi, Voronin, Degen, Dossena and Ayala don't look like having whats needed if we expect to be winning titles, either being injury prone, show little potential or have run out of chances (Babel) and clearly aren't good enough. I'd probably add Lucas to this list too. I don't think he's **** like some, the problem is that in his position you need to have ability in bucket loads for a title wining team, this is probably the most important position on the field and he just doesn't have the extra level thats needed.

This is going to be a difficult season.

[Fierce]

It is depressing. People keep talking about Spearing and I don't see anything better than Thomson or Warnock in ability. I think people are so hungry for a homegrown player with talent that its clouding their judgement. If he's the only player we have that people are excited about its a poor reflection of the talent with have in the academy.

We've sold two players and seem to have taken 4 steps back. Preseason has been piss poor and fair enough its preseason, but the way we played today in the real world was very poor. This wasn't a performance where we were both scrappy, or the inferior team simply showed more hunger, for lots of periods Spurs passed us off the park and looked to have far more quality. If it wasn't for Reina this could've been a heavy defeat.

We have probably a little over 50% of a starting 11 which could be good enough for a title winning side. Reina, Carra, Mascher, Benny, kuyt, Gerrard and Torres. I'd class Reina, Carra, Mascher, Gerrard and Torres as the cream of a title winning side and Benny and Kuyt as the fillers which every team has. The fillers are guys with good technical ability who will never set the world alight but do a good job. The problem we have now is that we are one or two players missing from the cream and a 3 or so fillers with the technical ability to play in a side pushing for the title. Johnson is a decent prospect and I expect him to make the grade and I also like the look of Insua. Aquilani I'm 50/50 on.

Babel, Riera, Skrtel, Agger, Spearing, Ngog, Plessi, Voronin, Degen, Dossena and Ayala don't look like having whats needed if we expect to be winning titles, either being injury prone, show little potential or have run out of chances (Babel) and clearly aren't good enough. I'd probably add Lucas to this list too. I don't think he's **** like some, the problem is that in his position you need to have ability in bucket loads for a title wining team, this is probably the most important position on the field and he just doesn't have the extra level thats needed.

This is going to be a difficult season.

I agree with the majority of what you've said, bar the title winning 11

Kuyt simply has to be there, he was comfortably the second best winger in the league behind £80m Ronaldo

I'd say injuries aside, Agger should be there too

Carragher, if he wasnt scouse and vital to this particular team, wouldn't be there, IMO

I'd rather Riera or Yossi above Park, Malouda or players of similar stature

Still, not good enough is it

[FatTony]

I agree with the majority of what you've said, bar the title winning 11

Kuyt simply has to be there, he was comfortably the second best winger in the league behind £80m Ronaldo

I'd say injuries aside, Agger should be there too

Carragher, if he wasnt scouse and vital to this particular team, wouldn't be there, IMO

I'd rather Riera or Yossi above Park, Malouda or players of similar stature

Still, not good enough is it

I still class Kuyt as needed as in the starting 11 (as I do Yossi), but I don't think he is a up there with the likes of the others as one of the worlds best. Agger has a lot to prove now, the problem with longterm injuries like he's had, is that so many players never return to the level they were.

I'd agree with Carra, but its his scouse that makes him better, he has more heart and desire because of it.

I'd take Yossi over Malouda and Park too, but Chelsea have world class players across the field to make up for it, and Manu have more established attacking options with Owen, Berbatov and Rooney.

I don't think Manu are much better than us, but I do think Chelsea are. Looking at the squad today though and Citeh concern me now.

[Joe Le Toff]

Lucas and Mascherano in the middle of the park will never work when we are attacking.

Lucas is neat and tidy without a doubt, but he does not play a forward or penetrative pass ever, nor does he ever look to.

Lucas reminds me a bit of Ray Wilkins for those of us old enough to remember him, Wilkins made a living out of passing the ball to his full backs, the original 'square ball'.
I think Lucas is cut from the same cloth.
Hopefully Aquilani will fill this gap when hes fit, in the meantime i would be tempted to drop Gerrard back alongside Mascherano and put Yossi behind Torres, i think that would make us more potent as an attacking unit.

Thought Johnson done well for his first game, started brightly, superb run for the penalty, faded a bit in the later stages. Best player for us today was Yossi, Kuyt, Carragher and Babel had shockers, Gerrard didnt look fit, Torres seemed well off the pace.

Babel should be sold in this window in my opinion, ive seen enough of this guy now to form an opinion that he is not a top level player and i dont think he ever will be, he lacks the drive and effort but more importantly, he has no game intelligence whatsoever and i havent seen a passenger like that in quite a while.

[Leyton388]

We were **** yesterday but i did not expect much from the game tbh as we hardly ever get a result there.

[PTP]

my firsts thoughts when we were **** yesterday was "how long before someone mentions alonso"

It started in the pub straight away.

even if alonso had been there we would have lost, and Alonso has gone now, we just have to move on.

I thought we would struggle, it was a tough opener plus we went into the game with carragher/skrtel/gerrard all injury doubts, this wasn't helped when they decided to smash each other up early on.

The only major gripe i have is that Benayoun didn't start instead of babel!!! Other than that once rafa has picked the XI it's down to them to go out and perform


We seemed to struggle to keep possession, torres was yet again isolated, although i like the 4-2-3-1 formation, when it doesn't work nando is just out the game (this happened with alonso as well) and we just don't have a solid plan b that makes you think, hmmm make this change and turn the game round. In games like that, sometimes you need dare i say it - a heskey type, hard working bruiser, to go and rough up and hassle the defenders and leave torres free. Or even the flexiabilty or options to try something different on the pitch - the mancs and chelsea can change shape for ten mins or so without making subs so why can't we?

Also Spurs just seemed more up for it, they beat us too everything, gave us no time to settle and out played us (maybe down to the fact that we had 3 players in key positions carrying knocks) - going back to my 'plan b' - it's a worry when Spurs have better attacking options than we do - it's torres,voronin, ngog vs Defoe, keane, Crouch, Paluvchenko! - As world class as torres is, if he isn't in the game he needs something from somewhere to help him and we just haven't got it.

[el matador]

this is what redknapp said...

Spurs boss Redknapp: Xabi exit has hurt Liverpool
17.08.09 | tribalfootball.com
Tottenham boss Harry Redknapp says Liverpool are missing Xabi Alonso after yesterday's defeat.

Redknapp said: "I expected Liverpool to put us under the cosh a bit more, especially after last year. I thought it would be another tough game for us.

"Of course, Liverpool are going to miss Alonso. He is quality. They had no one who could get the ball to Gerrard playing in that hole off Torres.

"Alonso is so clever, an intelligent player who sees things early. But they have bought the Italian boy, Aquilani, and he is supposed to be top, top class.

"It would have been hard to press Liverpool like we did if Alonso had been in their team, as he can turn the ball around corners with just one touch. I was worried about how Gerrard could hurt us. But with the pressing game we played, it restricted possession for Liverpool."

For me he hit the nail right on the head. We couldnt get the ball to gerrard from midfield and they quickly sussed us out and pressed us at every opportunity. Neither lucas nor masher could deal with the pressure and play around the pressing tactics which alonso used to with ease.

If we dont think gerrard should be moved back to help masher another option might be aurelio until aquilani is fit. He should be back soon and he does have some of that nous that lucas and masher are missing.

[Guest]

this is what redknapp said...

Spurs boss Redknapp: Xabi exit has hurt Liverpool
17.08.09 | tribalfootball.com
Tottenham boss Harry Redknapp says Liverpool are missing Xabi Alonso after yesterday's defeat.

Redknapp said: "I expected Liverpool to put us under the cosh a bit more, especially after last year. I thought it would be another tough game for us.

"Of course, Liverpool are going to miss Alonso. He is quality. They had no one who could get the ball to Gerrard playing in that hole off Torres.

"Alonso is so clever, an intelligent player who sees things early. But they have bought the Italian boy, Aquilani, and he is supposed to be top, top class.

"It would have been hard to press Liverpool like we did if Alonso had been in their team, as he can turn the ball around corners with just one touch. I was worried about how Gerrard could hurt us. But with the pressing game we played, it restricted possession for Liverpool."

For me he hit the nail right on the head. We couldnt get the ball to gerrard from midfield and they quickly sussed us out and pressed us at every opportunity. Neither lucas nor masher could deal with the pressure and play around the pressing tactics which alonso used to with ease.

If we dont think gerrard should be moved back to help masher another option might be aurelio until aquilani is fit. He should be back soon and he does have some of that nous that lucas and masher are missing.

I agree. That's what I was saying just before we punted our money on Aquilani. I'd have preferred we went for a top class centre forward and pushed Gerrard back into centre midfield. He's 29 now and the time for him to move back has arrived. We have more control when he's playing there, now that Alonso's gone. Maybe Aquilani can play further up the field, but I doubt Rafa has this in sight, as he's said it himself.

In short, Aquilani, even if he's a very talented footballer, can't be expected to have the same impact that Xabi had on our play, nor Lucas, who to be fair to the latter, has not grown enough into that sort of player. Lucas should be given his chance, but only against the lesser teams as it will give him time to gradually build his game to the level required. Central midfield is the most important area on the pitch. Win that and we basically win the match.

We've beated United 4-1 on their turf last season with Lucas playing alongside Masch and we won because United were below par on the day. Lucas is an excellent player but I don't think he's ready yet for this central midfield role. For that to happen, he needs to gain more confidence and try things even though it involves a risk he could stray a pass. That's how you progress, by trying difficult things, not by playing safe. He's trying to play safe but to the detriment of the team, as it puts pressure on other players to step in.

[Maxiedge]

Putting aside Babel starting ahead of Benayoun, I'm still really disappointed with our tactics yesterday. I thought we had one of the most astute tacticians as our manager with emphasis on attention to detail but we were outfoxed by Harry Redknapp who is just a man motivator by all accounts.

I'm still perplexed by this.