THE Lucas thread

[Shaggy]

Can't help but notice the OP, Roberto Bobbolino, hasn't been around for a while after his initial burst of posts....

[Reece]

Can't help but notice the OP, Roberto Bobbolino, hasn't been around for a while after his initial burst of posts....

Did you get bored this time or something?

[Craig_H]

[rudedog]

So in your opinion, none of us on here can ever disagree with a manager and be right, because they're more qualified?

If that's what you're suggesting, it's poppycock.

Here is a picture of Craigs strawman just in case anyone is having difficulty visualising the point he was trying to make...

[Craig_H]

I was asking him a question, not requesting some of your general ****wittery.

[dww]

I definitely and happily accept Kuyt has proved me wrong - however I think Craig has a point too; at the time I (along with lots of others) was on his case his performances were mainly poor. He's improved a bundle but in terms of being proven wrong, I can now see what he offers to us even when he's not scoring goals or explicitly prominent.

I actually think that Kuyt analogy is potentially an informative one.

A number of parallels that come out specifically in forum debates about the two players - both suffered from not being what was expected of them - Kuyt in terms of being the new Fowler or whatever as opposed to a 'force multiplier' type forward probably not pacy enough to lead the line regularly and Lucas in terms of either being a Gerrard or Alonso type player. This has lead to them being judged unfairly on parts of their game.

The fact that some people have taken this view to an extreme has forced people into and almost 'pro' or 'anti' form of debate with little room for a middle ground. In both cases I think part of the problem is that they are not great players in the way say Gerrard or Kaka are who would shine at least personally in almost any system they were at all sensibly deployed in, they are however very good role players. Possibly in a number of different roles.

Lucas struggles to link play unless there are options close to him and last season we set up to have comparatively little play making from the three behind Torres. In order to accomodate Lucas this has to change. He does a lot of good things defensively and in terms of moving the point we start attacks from but he doesn't frequently move the ball rapidly from defense into attack. It remains to be seen whether he can effect a Lampard like career evolution where he suddenly learns how to do this at the level he is playing at (by all accounts he did it well in Brazil).

[Craig_H]

Christ dww, if we ever need anyone to write an est 'boring essay', we'll know where to come

[Pacman]

I actually think that Kuyt analogy is potentially an informative one.

A number of parallels that come out specifically in forum debates about the two players - both suffered from not being what was expected of them - Kuyt in terms of being the new Fowler or whatever as opposed to a 'force multiplier' type forward probably not pacy enough to lead the line regularly and Lucas in terms of either being a Gerrard or Alonso type player. This has lead to them being judged unfairly on parts of their game.

The fact that some people have taken this view to an extreme has forced people into and almost 'pro' or 'anti' form of debate with little room for a middle ground. In both cases I think part of the problem is that they are not great players in the way say Gerrard or Kaka are who would shine at least personally in almost any system they were at all sensibly deployed in, they are however very good role players. possibly in a number of different roles.

Lucas struggles to link play unless there are options close to him and last season we set up to have comparatively little play making from the three behind Torres. In order to accomodate Lucas this has to change. He does a lot of good things defensively and in terms of moving the point we start attacks from but he doesn't frequently move the ball rapidly from defense into attack. It remains to be seen whether he can effect a Lampard like career evolution where he suddenly learns how to do this at the level he is playing at (by all accounts he did it well in Brazil).

I think you make some valid points there.

I remember an aritcle done by Vickery when we signed Lucas saying he was a Gerrard type box to box player however since his arival we have seen very little of this. To compare anyone to the likes of Gerrard is stupid IMO because we are talking about a player who is at the top echelons of the game and a player who would walk into any team. Lucas did contribute in an attacking sense last season in fact I recall one defense splitting pass to Stevie G against Newcastle resulting in a goal which was very reminiscent of Alonso.

There are lots Lucas can improve on but I do think that he deserves a little bit of credit and time for the attitude and professionalism he is showing. He is clearly highly thought of at Melwood and every interview I read or hear is about him wanting to improve and wanting to become a better player. He is improving and hopefully we will see in develop into the dynamic midfielder we thought we were getting when we signed him.

[Assassin]

So in your opinion, none of us on here can ever disagree with a manager and be right, because they're more qualified?

If that's what you're suggesting, it's poppycock.

No, thats your opinion. Of course you can disagree. But on the balance of expertise and knowledge you are in all probably incorrect as Rafa as you know is one of the best managers in the world. Even someone like yourself who likes to be right all of the time should be able to understand this reasoning

Its not really about being right or wrong. It is more about people constantly slagging off a player ( before you start, I am aware you dont go slagging Lucas off as much as other do), who is is trying his hardest to adapt to the toughest league in the world.

IMO Lucas is a talented player (you do not become player of the year in brazil if you are not extremely talented), howeever, he was a little lightweight. But look at the way he has bulked up in over the last year in order to become a player that can handle the rigours of the premier league.

I just wish people would start saying "well played" to Lucas rather than having digs at him uneccesarily. At the end of the day his performances are improving all the time. Long may it continue.

[Neil Young]

I definitely and happily accept Kuyt has proved me wrong - however I think Craig has a point too; at the time I (along with lots of others) was on his case his performances were mainly poor. He's improved a bundle but in terms of being proven wrong, I can now see what he offers to us even when he's not scoring goals or explicitly prominent.

I think the point about arguments about Kuyt were not whether he was playing well at the time - he wasn't - but whether he was worth persevering with based on what we could see.

Some of us could see he had something to offer. Others couldn't. I was right. You were wrong.

So if, as dww says, the Kuyt parallel is useful for examining points of view on Lucas, then some of us on here (and Rafa) think Lucas is worth persevering with while others don't.

Given how he has improved in the last few months (and he has, whatever intellectual giants like flyboy may say), then that suggests we should wait a while longer before making a final judgement.

[Neil Young]

Christ dww, if we ever need anyone to write an est 'boring essay', we'll know where to come

[Pacman]

I think the point about arguments about Kuyt were not whether he was playing well at the time - he wasn't - but whether he was worth persevering with based on what we could see.

Some of us could see he had something to offer. Others couldn't. I was right. You were wrong.

So if, as dww says, the Kuyt parallel is useful for examining points of view on Lucas, then some of us on here (and Rafa) think Lucas is worth persevering with while others don't.

Given how he has improved in the last few months (and he has, whatever intellectual giants like flyboy may say), then that suggests we should wait a while longer before making a final judgement.

So basically you agree with everything I've said.

You're finally coming round to realising that I am better than you in every aspect of life.

[Neil Young]

So basically you agree with everything I've said.

You're finally coming round to realising that I am better than you in every aspect of life.

I always thought Kuyt was good enough and I've always been willing to give Lucas more time.

You're the one who got a bike recently. I haven't become the fattest person on the planet.

Who, precisely, is copying whom?

[Neil Young]

I actually think that Kuyt analogy is potentially an informative one.

A number of parallels that come out specifically in forum debates about the two players - both suffered from not being what was expected of them - Kuyt in terms of being the new Fowler or whatever as opposed to a 'force multiplier' type forward probably not pacy enough to lead the line regularly and Lucas in terms of either being a Gerrard or Alonso type player. This has lead to them being judged unfairly on parts of their game.

The fact that some people have taken this view to an extreme has forced people into and almost 'pro' or 'anti' form of debate with little room for a middle ground. In both cases I think part of the problem is that they are not great players in the way say Gerrard or Kaka are who would shine at least personally in almost any system they were at all sensibly deployed in, they are however very good role players. Possibly in a number of different roles.

Lucas struggles to link play unless there are options close to him and last season we set up to have comparatively little play making from the three behind Torres. In order to accomodate Lucas this has to change. He does a lot of good things defensively and in terms of moving the point we start attacks from but he doesn't frequently move the ball rapidly from defense into attack. It remains to be seen whether he can effect a Lampard like career evolution where he suddenly learns how to do this at the level he is playing at (by all accounts he did it well in Brazil).

I think you make some valid points there.

I remember an aritcle done by Vickery when we signed Lucas saying he was a Gerrard type box to box player however since his arival we have seen very little of this. To compare anyone to the likes of Gerrard is stupid IMO because we are talking about a player who is at the top echelons of the game and a player who would walk into any team. Lucas did contribute in an attacking sense last season in fact I recall one defense splitting pass to Stevie G against Newcastle resulting in a goal which was very reminiscent of Alonso.

There are lots Lucas can improve on but I do think that he deserves a little bit of credit and time for the attitude and professionalism he is showing. He is clearly highly thought of at Melwood and every interview I read or hear is about him wanting to improve and wanting to become a better player. He is improving and hopefully we will see in develop into the dynamic midfielder we thought we were getting when we signed him.

[Oberon]

I think you make some valid points there.

I remember an aritcle done by Vickery when we signed Lucas saying he was a Gerrard type box to box player however since his arival we have seen very little of this. To compare anyone to the likes of Gerrard is stupid IMO because we are talking about a player who is at the top echelons of the game and a player who would walk into any team. Lucas did contribute in an attacking sense last season in fact I recall one defense splitting pass to Stevie G against Newcastle resulting in a goal which was very reminiscent of Alonso.

There are lots Lucas can improve on but I do think that he deserves a little bit of credit and time for the attitude and professionalism he is showing. He is clearly highly thought of at Melwood and every interview I read or hear is about him wanting to improve and wanting to become a better player. He is improving and hopefully we will see in develop into the dynamic midfielder we thought we were getting when we signed him.