THE Lucas thread

[Assassin]

Exactly. But these types of questions are being interpreted as Lucas bashing, which I don't think they are.

Bull****, it is just creative bashing, so you look like the innocent victim of a tongue lashing from another poster

Not everybody is as niave as you would like to believe

[Tee]

But you're previous post said "Why do we find it so hard just to admit", suggesting that we all have the same opinion as you expressed in that post regarding lucas, it's just we refuse to admit it????

Besides, I don't think anyone has suggested that he would be an automatic started if we had a fully fit squad. No doubt Aquilani will come in for him, although that may be a gradual process if he needs some settling time.

I think Lucas has played well so far this season, no more no less. But I also think he will continue to improve. So I'd be more than happy keeping him as a squad/fringe starter player.

Reece, please don't just quote part of my post. If you read it in its full context I am saying what you - that I would also be happy to keep him as a squad/fringe starter player.

Why do we find it so hard just to admit that while he tries his best and should be commended for that, he just is not good enough to hold down the first team spot of CM.

[Reece]

Reece, please don't just quote part of my post. If you read it in its full context I am saying what you - that I would also be happy to keep him as a squad/fringe starter player.

Sorry you're right. It was just the way that first part was phrased stuck in my head and I didn't put it into context with the rest of your post

[Tee]

Sorry you're right. It was just the way that first part was phrased stuck in my head and I didn't put it into context with the rest of your post

No worries.

[dww]

If Lucas wasnt our player and had been performing as he's done for us, in another PL team, would you want us to buy him?

Difficult to tell - I doubt I would see enough of any other teams games to know if I'm honest. He's not a highlight reel sort of player. I think I probably would have - but then it depends on who we had in the team instead fairly obviously.

[Craig_H]

Yes

I dont personally believe that's true, but fair enough.

Obviously now that he's worn LFC red, there's a touch of sentimentality about it, but if he'd come from Gremio to say Wigan, such feeling wouldnt exist and i dont think many of us would be pinpointing him as a player we'd want to cherry pick from Wigan.

[Craig_H]

Difficult to tell - I doubt I would see enough of any other teams games to know if I'm honest. He's not a highlight reel sort of player. I think I probably would have - but then it depends on who we had in the team instead fairly obviously.

That's a very key point you've highlighted there. Using the same argument, i would be inclined to ask whether someone like Sidwell or Cattermole are equally as good or better than Lucas, but because we dont see enough of their games, we dont see them as being so. I think that's quite possibly true, but of course, very few of us think of Sidwell or Cattermole as being anything more than average/decent players.

Likewise, very few (if any) non LFC fans think a great deal of Lucas either.

[Assassin]

I dont personally believe that's true, but fair enough.

Obviously now that he's worn LFC red, there's a touch of sentimentality about it, but if he'd come from Gremio to say Wigan, such feeling wouldnt exist and i dont think many of us would be pinpointing him as a player we'd want to cherry pick from Wigan.

Craig if he was playing for another team in the PL and we got buy him fro them at the price we paid for him from Gremio, it would be seen as a bargain.

People keep judging him unfairly against Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano. He has a different style of play to all of these. He reminds me a lot of Ronnie Whelan. Eagerly awaits operations idiotic reply on this

Another thing, think back to Gerrard when he was 22. Performance wise Lucas is currently on a par with Gerrard performances when he was that age.

Lucas is getting better and better and will mature into a fine player

[Craig_H]

Craig if he was playing for another team in the PL and we got buy him fro them at the price we paid for him from Gremio, it would be seen as a bargain.

People keep judging him unfairly against Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano. He has a different style of play to all of these. He reminds me a lot of Ronnie Whelan. Eagerly awaits operations idiotic reply on this

Another thing, think back to Gerrard when he was 22. Performance wise Lucas is currently on a par with Gerrard performances when he was that age.

Lucas is getting better and better and will mature into a fine player

That wasnt my question though mate. If he was at Wigan doing what he does for us, would you pinpoint him and specifically want to sign HIM?

[Kenneth]

Craig if he was playing for another team in the PL and we got buy him fro them at the price we paid for him from Gremio, it would be seen as a bargain.

People keep judging him unfairly against Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano. He has a different style of play to all of these. He reminds me a lot of Ronnie Whelan. Eagerly awaits operations idiotic reply on this

Another thing, think back to Gerrard when he was 22. Performance wise Lucas is currently on a par with Gerrard performances when he was that age.
Lucas is getting better and better and will mature into a fine player

Without looking for an argument, I don't think that's fair. Gerrard was captain of Liverpool at 23 and had already played a key role in successful FA Cup and UEFA cup runs scoring plenty of goals from CM.

EDIT: And having just looked it up, he won the PL PFA Fans’ Player of the Year award at 22.

[dww]

That's a very key point you've highlighted there. Using the same argument, i would be inclined to ask whether someone like Sidwell or Cattermole are equally as good or better than Lucas, but because we dont see enough of their games, we dont see them as being so. I think that's quite possibly true, but of course, very few of us think of Sidwell or Cattermole as being anything more than average/decent players.

Likewise, very few (if any) non LFC fans think a great deal of Lucas either.

That is a fair point.

I think there are aspect of Lucas' game that I would generally find eye catching if I watched a game with him in - namely his short passing possession game and his blocks. However you can be good at many core skills and not be overall a good player. I feel that applying the skills Lucas does in the PL is a pretty rare talent - that is not to say that it is a/ generally better or b/ better suited to the needs of our team. they are however skills that my (admittedly limited) watching of Cattermole and Sidwell indicate they don't have.

I agree that I couldn't really give a full assessment of many players who operate in the force multiplier or supply line functions in midfield in the PL. My feeling is that over the years I have probably seen enough of Sidwell to indicate that he has been consistently decent but lacks some of the key ingredients to be a top player and he has now been looked at and rejected by two top team coaches in the PL. I certainly couldn't pass any form of judgement on Cattamoles overall quality although Wigan seemed to do a lot better when he was added to the team.

[dww]

People keep judging him unfairly against Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano. He has a different style of play to all of these. He reminds me a lot of Ronnie Whelan.

Another thing, think back to Gerrard when he was 22. Performance wise Lucas is currently on a par with Gerrard performances when he was that age.

Lucas is getting better and better and will mature into a fine player

Without looking for an argument, I don't think that's fair. Gerrard was captain of Liverpool at 23 and had already played a key role in successful FA Cup and UEFA cup runs scoring plenty of goals from CM.

EDIT: And having just looked it up, he won the PL PFA Fans’ Player of the Year award at 22.

I think (as Neil Young stated earlier) that comparisons with the truly exceptional likes of Gerrard are unhelpful. I for one thing Gerrard was a much better player at that age and probably always will be - however he was probably one of the best players in the world in his age group then and is now simply one of the best players in the world. I'm not convinced that Lucas will ever be in that lofty company.

However there are a huge number of players who have won the PL/CL etc. both with us and other clubs who aren't in that rank of players either and have been key to those successes.

[Assassin]

That wasnt my question though mate. If he was at Wigan doing what he does for us, would you pinpoint him and specifically want to sign HIM?

Yes I would, he is a far better player than Cattermole

[Assassin]

Without looking for an argument, I don't think that's fair. Gerrard was captain of Liverpool at 23 and had already played a key role in successful FA Cup and UEFA cup runs scoring plenty of goals from CM.

EDIT: And having just looked it up, he won the PL PFA Fans’ Player of the Year award at 22.

At the age of 19 Lucas became the youngest player to ever to receive Placar magazine's Bola de Ouro (Golden Ball), given to the best player in the Campeonato Brasileiro an honour previously won by the likes of Zico, Falcão, Careca, Romario, Kaká and Tevez.

You have to be an exceptional player to win this award.

When compairing Lucas and Gerrard at 22. Gerrard was actually more erratic and less disciplined at this age than Lucas.

Anyways, I guess at the end of the day we will never agree on the player. Hopefully you will be able to appreciate Lucas at some stage of his career with us.

If you stop the sniping and give Lucas a break I will stop my crusade towards you

[Craig_H]

Yes I would, he is a far better player than Cattermole

Again, i wasnt asking in that question whether he's better than Cattermole.

Is the requirement for a Liverpool player, now merely to be better than Cattermole?

I dont think, if Lucas played for a random 10th-14th placed PL club, that you'd look at him and think 'he would improve us, i want him'.

And winning Brazilian player of the year award, until LFC start playing in the brazilian league, is of no relevance to us.