THE Lucas thread

[BrianF80]

So even in a game where Mascher excelled, just taking the bare facts into account...

Mascher
Tackles 3/3 (100%)
Passes 85/96 (89%)

Lucas
Tackles 5/7 (71%)
Passes 65/72 (90%)

So Lucas had a good game, as did Mascher, yet is still derided by some?

And Carra only passed to Lucas/Mascher 14 times (5 to Lucas, 9 to Mascher) and Skrtel 23 (6 Lucas, 17 Mascher)

They both played well the fact that the west ham CM had next to no impact on the game was testament to that. The fact we created 20+ chances again confirms it.

IMO The real problem is that we are in the process of transitioning to pass and move again. We haven't played that way for 10 years so people IMO tend to under estimate the value of the 10 yd pass and move to space. The value is not in the technique but in how it enhances the opportunity to the collective.

[Le Chef]

They both played well the fact that the west ham CM had next to no impact on the game was testament to that. The fact we created 20+ chances again confirms it.

IMO The real problem is that we are in the process of transitioning to pass and move again. We haven't played that way for 10 years so people IMO tend to under estimate the value of the 10 yd pass and move to space. The value is not in the technique but in how it enhances the opportunity to the collective.

Good point, I see flashes of Rafa's Valencia's side every now and then

[Craig_H]

So even in a game where Mascher excelled, just taking the bare facts into account...

Mascher
Tackles 3/3 (100%)
Passes 85/96 (89%)

Lucas
Tackles 5/7 (71%)
Passes 65/72 (90%)

So Lucas had a good game, as did Mascher, yet is still derided by some?

And Carra only passed to Lucas/Mascher 14 times (5 to Lucas, 9 to Mascher) and Skrtel 23 (6 Lucas, 17 Mascher)

Still no links to where he's been derided after the west ham game?

[Scratch]

Still no links to where he's been derided after the west ham game?

Sorry, that was on the Rawk site...he is defended by some, derided by others...i don't post there, i just read...can't be arsed with some of the attitude's on that site, they put you in the pale!

[Craig_H]

Nice to know i'm 'middle of the road' then

So the deriding didnt happen on here then. That's a relief, i thought i was being blind.

I wouldnt pay attention to what's said on RAWK, they're mentalists.

[Scratch]

Nice to know i'm 'middle of the road' then

So the deriding didnt happen on here then. That's a relief, i thought i was being blind.

I wouldnt pay attention to what's said on RAWK, they're mentalists.

I don't know, i find them all very insightful...or is that inciteful??

[Delinquent]

But we can't have a squad of 25 'outstanding' players though, it would be impossible to give them all enough playing time to keep them happy whilst retaining the necessary cohesion needed for a succesfull team.

The idea behind having 'tidy' players in the squad is that they can slip in to the side when needed without any huge detriment to the team. Isn't this what Lucas is currently doing?

That's not the point I was making.

Assassin argued that if Lucas was playing for another team then he'd want us to sign him. Regardless of the importance of solid squad players, Lucas has hardly been outstanding this season, and is therefore very unlikely to feature on any one of the top four's wishlists.

If I asked you to name your choices for potential signings, you'd probably name me a world class winger or two, perhaps a striker, since that's what we need to move this team on. You certainly wouldn't name me Lee Cattermole or Nigel Reo-Coker, and yet both are comparable to the standard Lucas has been playing at this season. That is, solid, but unspectacular.

While I don't agree with those needlessly looking for a scapegoat for bad performances, it's equally unhelpful to paint 'decent' performances as heroic ones. That's all I was saying.

[Pacman]

That's not the point I was making.

Assassin argued that if Lucas was playing for another team then he'd want us to sign him. Regardless of the importance of solid squad players, Lucas has hardly been outstanding this season, and is therefore very unlikely to feature on any one of the top four's wishlists.

If I asked you to name your choices for potential signings, you'd probably name me a world class winger or two, perhaps a striker, since that's what we need to move this team on. You certainly wouldn't name me Lee Cattermole or Nigel Reo-Coker, and yet both are comparable to the standard Lucas has been playing at this season. That is, solid, but unspectacular.

While I don't agree with those needlessly looking for a scapegoat for bad performances, it's equally unhelpful to paint 'decent' performances as heroic ones. That's all I was saying.

I think you'll find that Lucas is more than holding his own when votes are counted by Morse in his man of the match threads. These threads are posted on nearly all the Liverpool fan sites and Lucas this season has come out favourably so to compare his performances to the likes of Reo-Coker and Cattermole might be an accurate assessment in your eyes but I don't think lots of people will share your opinion.

[rudedog]

That's not the point I was making.

Assassin argued that if Lucas was playing for another team then he'd want us to sign him. Regardless of the importance of solid squad players, Lucas has hardly been outstanding this season, and is therefore very unlikely to feature on any one of the top four's wishlists.

If I asked you to name your choices for potential signings, you'd probably name me a world class winger or two, perhaps a striker, since that's what we need to move this team on. You certainly wouldn't name me Lee Cattermole or Nigel Reo-Coker, and yet both are comparable to the standard Lucas has been playing at this season. That is, solid, but unspectacular.

While I don't agree with those needlessly looking for a scapegoat for bad performances, it's equally unhelpful to paint 'decent' performances as heroic ones. That's all I was saying.

But if we didn't have Lucas in the side and needed to sign a CM for around 6 million (bearing in mind that Mascherano and Aquilani would be first choice CMs) I certainly don't think its absurd that we would be interested in Lucas based on his recent performances.

[Fierce]

But if we didn't have Lucas in the side and needed to sign a CM for around 6 million (bearing in mind that Mascherano and Aquilani would be first choice CMs) I certainly don't think its absurd that we would be interested in Lucas based on his recent performances.

Nail. Head

[Delinquent]

But if we didn't have Lucas in the side and needed to sign a CM for around 6 million (bearing in mind that Mascherano and Aquilani would be first choice CMs) I certainly don't think its absurd that we would be interested in Lucas based on his recent performances.

I think that's an entirely subjective stance. I'd suggest that if he wasn't playing for us, many people wouldn't feel the need to staunchly defend him or express such loyalty, and as such, he'd be nowhere near anybody's wishlist.

I think the easiest way to get an objective opinion would be to ask fans from opposing teams in the 'big four' whether they would like to sign him as backup to their first team. Based on a number of conversations I've had, I suspect they wouldn't.

Of course, other people may have mates who eulogize about Lucas on a daily basis. Mine don't.

[Neil Young]

I think that's an entirely subjective stance. I'd suggest that if he wasn't playing for us, many people wouldn't feel the need to staunchly defend him or express such loyalty, and as such, he'd be nowhere near anybody's wishlist.

I think the easiest way to get an objective opinion would be to ask fans from opposing teams in the 'big four' whether they would like to sign him as backup to their first team. Based on a number of conversations I've had, I suspect they wouldn't.

Of course, other people may have mates who eulogize about Lucas on a daily basis. Mine don't.

And your mates who support other clubs are objective are they?

Like lots of people on here are objective about how crap Lampard is I suppose.

I think you're being every bit as selective with your criteria as anyone else on this thread.

[Pacman]

And your mates who support other clubs are objective are they?

Like lots of people on here are objective about how crap Lampard is I suppose.

I think you're being every bit as selective with your criteria as anyone else on this thread.

[rudedog]

I think that's an entirely subjective stance. I'd suggest that if he wasn't playing for us, many people wouldn't feel the need to staunchly defend him or express such loyalty, and as such, he'd be nowhere near anybody's wishlist.

Its no more subjective than your proposal that its absurd that we would want to sign Lucas were he playing for another premiership side. If we're going to start dismissing other peoples opinions just because they are subjective then we may as well just shut the forums down.

I think the easiest way to get an objective opinion would be to ask fans from opposing teams in the 'big four' whether they would like to sign him as backup to their first team. Based on a number of conversations I've had, I suspect they wouldn't.

That would only be a 'fair' objective opinion if our rivals were lacking in a back up CM and had a limited budget of around £6m to spend. In the number of conversations you had, did you put forward those specific criteria? It would also be interesting to see how many of our rivals back up CM's were on the fans 'wish lists' before their respective clubs purchased them.

Of course, other people may have mates who eulogize about Lucas on a daily basis. Mine don't.

No, none of my mates eulogize about other teams back up CMs on a daily basis either so I don't really understand your point.

[Delinquent]

And your mates who support other clubs are objective are they?

Like lots of people on here are objective about how crap Lampard is I suppose.

I think you're being every bit as selective with your criteria as anyone else on this thread.

Well, we can only strive for objectivity. We can never expect to achieve it in its purest form.

That said, anybody deriding Lampard or any other player based on the club they play for is an idiot and their opinions can be ruled out on those grounds as far as I'm concerned. (Admittedly, these criteria are subjective, but I think necessary for the sake of reasoned debate.)

As for being selective with my criteria (apart from the above ), I've speculated on a hypothetical scenario, as proposed by another poster. The way some people are talking you'd think I want Lucas to fail. I have a vested interest in this club, and therefore a vested interest in how the players perform. I would love love for Lucas to succeed here, because it would improve our chances of winning. That's a lot more important to me than being right in my prediction that he's not quite good enough.

I believe my mates who support other clubs are able to judge performances by players from another clubs (relatively) objectively. Just because I want Man Utd to lose every week, doesn't mean I can't acknowledge when their players have performed well. Admittedly, this isn't true of all supporters, so I take your point there. Although I think the fact that my Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal supporting mates are generally pretty happy to see Lucas starting for us tells its own story really.