THE Lucas thread

[memzey]

Bit of a poison chalice getting involved in a Lucas thread but anyway....


Lucas has been worthy of his place in the squad so far this season. I'd much rather have him in the team than Cattermole or NRC on this seasons' form.

So far he has proven to be a mobile, hard working, defensively solid continuity player and has shown he has the balls not to let his critics get on top of him. I much prefer looking at things in that light as opposed to what he isn't: a midfield genius like Alonso, a terrier like Mascherano, an inspiration like Gerrard, a constant goal threat like Lampard etc. Bottom line is his place in the make up of our squad isn't that of a star player. He is there to be adequate relieving cover to our star midfielders (Mascherano and Aquilani).

[Pacman]

Well, we can only strive for objectivity. We can never expect to achieve it in its purest form.

That said, anybody deriding Lampard or any other player based on the club they play for is an idiot and their opinions can be ruled out on those grounds as far as I'm concerned. (Admittedly, these criteria are subjective, but I think necessary for the sake of reasoned debate.)

As for being selective with my criteria (apart from the above ), I've speculated on a hypothetical scenario, as proposed by another poster. The way some people are talking you'd think I want Lucas to fail. I have a vested interest in this club, and therefore a vested interest in how the players perform. I would love love for Lucas to succeed here, because it would improve our chances of winning. That's a lot more important to me than being right in my prediction that he's not quite good enough.

I believe my mates who support other clubs are able to judge performances by players from another clubs (relatively) objectively. Just because I want Man Utd to lose every week, doesn't mean I can't acknowledge when their players have performed well. Admittedly, this isn't true of all supporters, so I take your point there. Although I think the fact that my Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal supporting mates are generally pretty happy to see Lucas starting for us tells its own story really.

So some of your mates don't rate Lucas?

Can I ask if they are fans of other clubs how they have formed their opinion of him? Match of the day? The odd match on SKY? Or do they follow every performance with interest like when they follow the players of the clubs they actually support?

I'm sorry but your mates (and my mates who also form opinions on Liverpool players) are hardly a yard stick on which we should rate somone. They would have seen Lucas in small doses hardly enough evidence to form an accurate opinion if you ask me.

[Delinquent]

No, none of my mates eulogize about other teams back up CMs on a daily basis either so I don't really understand your point.

You are the one who has labelled him a 'backup' player. It is not clear yet (and won't be until Aquilani is fully fit) whether he is backup to the first team, or an integral part of it. And with so many games being played the line between so-called 'backup' players and rotating first team members is becoming somewhat blurred anyway. Whichever way you look at it, he is currently a regular first team player.

I think your insistence on referring to him as 'backup' speaks volumes actually.

[Delinquent]

So some of your mates don't rate Lucas?

Can I ask if they are fans of other clubs how they have formed their opinion of him? Match of the day? The odd match on SKY? Or do they follow every performance with interest like when they follow the players of the clubs they actually support?

I'm sorry but your mates (and my mates who also form opinions on Liverpool players) are hardly a yard stick on which we should rate somone. They would have seen Lucas in small doses hardly enough evidence to form an accurate opinion if you ask me.

Like me, many of my friends who support opposing teams take quite an interest in the games of their rivals. And some are just big fans of football.

Of course, I would never rely on their opinions to form my own but they certainly do no harm in supplementing them.

[memzey]

You are the one who has labelled him a 'backup' player. It is not clear yet (and won't be until Aquilani is fully fit) whether he is backup to the first team, or an integral part of it. And with so many games being played the line between so-called 'backup' players and rotating first team members is becoming somewhat blurred anyway. Whichever way you look at it, he is currently a regular first team player.

I think your insistence on referring to him as 'backup' speaks volumes actually.

Why? He is clearly a back up player. I don't think even Lucas would argue that when everyone has been fit over the past 2 and a bit seasons he has been here, he has been a first choice centre mid for us. And although I take your point on Aquilani being an unknown force until we see him regularly, it's something of a moot point as he is a £16m+ star player we bought with the clear intention of making him first choice alongside Mascher. Whether that is proven to be the case or not isn't really Lucas' fault (unless he plays so well himself, Rafa has to pick him).

[Delinquent]

Why? He is clearly a back up player. I don't think even Lucas would argue that when everyone has been fit over the past 2 and a bit seasons he has been here, he has been a first choice centre mid for us. And although I take your point on Aquilani being an unknown force until we see him regularly, it's something of a moot point as he is a £16m+ star player we bought with the clear intention of making him first choice alongside Mascher. Whether that is proven to be the case or not isn't really Lucas' fault (unless he plays so well himself, Rafa has to pick him).

For the last two seasons Alonso was here. Both Rafa and Lucas have commented on Lucas' new responsibility now that he is gone so it's not inconceivable to suggest that Rafa sees him as more than just a utility player, particularly given his constant efforts to raise his profile in the press.

Of course Aquilani looks the most likely candidate to replace Alonso but it's fast becoming apparent that Lucas is perhaps more likely to be rotated with Mascherano than he is a fit Aquilani (or you would hope so, anyway).

Either way, I don't think it's as clear cut as you make it out to be. My hope is that you're right, and Lucas is simply filling in in the absence of the superior Aquilani but I wouldn't be surprised see Rafa persist with him this season.

[rudedog]

You are the one who has labelled him a 'backup' player. It is not clear yet (and won't be until Aquilani is fully fit) whether he is backup to the first team, or an integral part of it. And with so many games being played the line between so-called 'backup' players and rotating first team members is becoming somewhat blurred anyway. Whichever way you look at it, he is currently a regular first team player.

I think your insistence on referring to him as 'backup' speaks volumes actually.

Actually, I think you'll find it was yourself who first refered to him as 'backup' . Both times I used the term after were in reply to this and in the context of your original usage.

I think the easiest way to get an objective opinion would be to ask fans from opposing teams in the 'big four' whether they would like to sign him as backup to their first team.

It just makes your final point look a bit daft.

I think your insistence on referring to him as 'backup' speaks volumes actually.

[The Birdman]

All of this is my opinion and not fact clearly but there you go, out of the other 'big 3' plus City and Spurs -
Lucas is better than Anderson, Diaby, Denillson, Song, Huddlestone, Palacios, Penis he isn't better than Essien, Mikel (about par) Fletcher, Barry , Ireland and is a completely different player to the likes of Carrick, Fabregas, Lampard, Ballack.

So of his type there are only a couple better than him imo in the PL and those players wouldn't sign for us and we probably couldn't afford them.
Also he is miles, miles better than Spearing or Plessis

[RedReet]

For the last two seasons Alonso was here. Both Rafa and Lucas have commented on Lucas' new responsibility now that he is gone so it's not inconceivable to suggest that Rafa sees him as more than just a utility player, particularly given his constant efforts to raise his profile in the press.

Of course Aquilani looks the most likely candidate to replace Alonso but it's fast becoming apparent that Lucas is perhaps more likely to be rotated with Mascherano than he is a fit Aquilani (or you would hope so, anyway).

Either way, I don't think it's as clear cut as you make it out to be. My hope is that you're right, and Lucas is simply filling in in the absence of the superior Aquilani but I wouldn't be surprised see Rafa persist with him this season.

Lets just wait and see, shall we.

In in response to the ridiclous would we have wanted Lucas if he played for another team debate, I can't remember too many people throwing Aquilani's name into the hat.

[Shaggy]

All of this is my opinion and not fact clearly but there you go, out of the other 'big 3' plus City and Spurs -
Lucas is better than Anderson, Diaby, Denillson, Song, Huddlestone, Palacios, Penis he isn't better than Essien, Mikel (about par) Fletcher, Barry , Ireland and is a completely different player to the likes of Carrick, Fabregas, Lampard, Ballack.

So of his type there are only a couple better than him imo in the PL and those players wouldn't sign for us and we probably couldn't afford them.
Also he is miles, miles better than Spearing or Plessis

Penis?

[BrianF80]

All of this is my opinion and not fact clearly but there you go, out of the other 'big 3' plus City and Spurs -
Lucas is better than Anderson, Diaby, Denillson, Song, Huddlestone, Palacios, Penis he isn't better than Essien, Mikel (about par) Fletcher, Barry , Ireland and is a completely different player to the likes of Carrick, Fabregas, Lampard, Ballack.

So of his type there are only a couple better than him imo in the PL and those players wouldn't sign for us and we probably couldn't afford them.
Also he is miles, miles better than Spearing or Plessis

I'd go along with that except to note that Denilson is ace (swap him and Mikel IMO) and suffers the same "PR" issues as Lucas.

[Delinquent]

Actually, I think you'll find it was yourself who first refered to him as 'backup' . Both times I used the term after were in reply to this and in the context of your original usage.



It just makes your final point look a bit daft.

He would be backup to any of our rivals (and not even that, arguably). He isn't for us. That's half the point.

[Delinquent]

All of this is my opinion and not fact clearly but there you go, out of the other 'big 3' plus City and Spurs -
Lucas is better than Anderson, Diaby, Denillson, Song, Huddlestone, Palacios, Penis he isn't better than Essien, Mikel (about par) Fletcher, Barry , Ireland and is a completely different player to the likes of Carrick, Fabregas, Lampard, Ballack.

So of his type there are only a couple better than him imo in the PL and those players wouldn't sign for us and we probably couldn't afford them.
Also he is miles, miles better than Spearing or Plessis

I'd swap Lucas for Palacios at the drop of a hat. Like you say though, it's all down to personal opinion. We could argue about it until the cows come home.

[RedReet]

He would be backup to any of our rivals (and not even that, arguably). He isn't for us. That's half the point.

****, do I hate that argument!

[rudedog]

He would be backup to any of our rivals (and not even that, arguably). He isn't for us. That's half the point.

this is just getting stupid, I'm out.