Defending Corners

[Nick77]

All 4 of the goals that City conceded were due to poor marking - if that were us the press would have had a field day with regards to the zonal marking system. But the man marking system will NEVER be at fault, just poor marking - funny that!

[Craig_H]

It's not about the system, it's about how a team implements it. Get either wrong, and you're ****ed and concede goals.

As it stands now, we ARE messing up with the zonal marking system and criticism of how we're applying it, is perfectly valid.

Any system, if you cant implement it properly, is effectively ****.

[dww]

I know what your saying and in the past I think that the analysis that zonal marking is at fault has been merely lazy journalism. The fact is though that different systems make different demands of your personnel.

Man marking obviously pits man against man so any errors are almost by definition down to a single person and the systematic fault is either in choice of player or the idea that you cover the area best by putting man against man. Obviously zonal marking will mostly share the responsibility of stopping any chance between a number of people meaning that most criticism wil be of the system.

At the minute I think there is a clear systematic problem for us at the near post. We simply don't have the personnel to dominate this key area. We seem to end up with Carragher deep, the fullback (either Johnson or Insua) and Torres challenging for near post balls - none of which are dominant and none of which clear the ball with any frequency. It is clear that Villa, Bolton and West Ham all targetted this area. I guess we could try and get Reina to come for the ball in this area but beyond that I don't really see any obvious way to rearrange our players in a zonal way to defend that zone better.

[Craig_H]

Bearing in mind that it's questionable whether we have the players to implement this at the moment, would you be tempted to go to m2m? Zonal has seen us concede stupid amounts of goals from corners and freekicks, which we never did before.

[BFG]

It's not about the system, it's about how a team implements it. Get either wrong, and you're ****ed and concede goals.

As it stands now, we ARE messing up with the zonal marking system and criticism of how we're applying it, is perfectly valid.
Any system, if you cant implement it properly, is effectively ****.

The criticism I've heard isn't about our implementation though, which I agree would be fair. The pundits are just sat there waiting for any mistake we make so they can say, "we told you so, the system is flawed."

They're entitled to their opinion of course and there'll be no definitive answer as to which is the better system but when they only pick out examples of zonal systems letting in goals (like they did with us on Saturday) and ignore examples of man marking systems conceding (such as Kuyt's goal on Saturday and Man Utd's goals yesterday) then it's obvious they already have their take on it and it isn't open for further debate or analysis to them, despite what the evidence may point to.

I agree entirely with your first point.

[dww]

Bearing in mind that it's questionable whether we have the players to implement this at the moment, would you be tempted to go to m2m? Zonal has seen us concede stupid amounts of goals from corners and freekicks, which we never did before.

I would certainly be tempted to consider a hybrid system as it seems that most teams have at most one or two players who would are used to make the runs that cause problems for us. The question becomes who would I want marking say Terry and Drogba come the Chelsea game which is again difficult to answer although I think Skrtel would be one obvious candidate. I honestly don't know enough about how the zonal system works overall to say whether a hybrid system is possible if it is dominated by the zonals system (obviously in man to man positions like those on the posts can be accommodated with ease).

It is clear that Rafa thinks it is down to problem with individuals performance and that is of course still possible in the sense that possibly Johnson, Torres and Carragher at least (I think the fact Insua is a midget counts against him) can form a reliable unit in this area if they all learn to attack the ball correctly. It may be that our failings are a sign of the fact that both Torres and Carragher have been off form at the start of the season and nothing more.

[Craig_H]

Well i would look to change it completely, and for a start, i would leave 3 players up on the halfway line when defending a corner. The opposition would then leave 4 players back to deal with them. Along with the corner taker and opposition keeper, this leaves 6 of their side occupied, meaning they can only have 5 players in our box - and we'd have 6 outfield players, plus Reina, to deal with it.

Then, go man for man on their 5, with one defender plus Pepe 'spare'.

[MrMichael]

It's not about the system, it's about how a team implements it. Get either wrong, and you're ****ed and concede goals.

Absolutely. Which is why the media going on about the system rather than the actual application of it grates with so many of our fans

[dww]

Well i would look to change it completely, and for a start, i would leave 3 players up on the halfway line when defending a corner. The opposition would then leave 4 players back to deal with them. Along with the corner taker and opposition keeper, this leaves 6 of their side occupied, meaning they can only have 5 players in our box - and we'd have 6 outfield players, plus Reina, to deal with it.

Then, go man for man on their 5, with one defender plus Pepe 'spare'.

You have to ask why none of the other big clubs do that though.

[Craig_H]

You have to ask why none of the other big clubs do that though.

To be fair, none of them use zonal marking either, do they?

[billy_mac]

Man on the back stick?

Another set piece goal at the weekend. Very familar pattern is emerging, ball into the near post and flick across the goal with the ball nestling in at the back post. We can argue the merits of man or zonal marking forever, but what about sticking a man on the back post if not both posts? I don't see how one man on the back post would effect man marking or zonal marking. That's Spurs, Villa and West Ham all scored the same goal against us.

With the current zonal marking regime one thing is imperative, get Torres off the front post. He likes a header at the goal but he's not up for the defensive side. I'd have Kyut where Torres is at present and I'd have Mascherano who is never going to win a header on the back post.

[MrMichael]

We need to do something, that's for sure, or every team that plays against us will have seen the vids and will try do the same thing. Whether that's get to the first ball before the flick or have someone on the post I don't know, but whatever system we use we've got to do it better than we have been

[dww]

To be fair, none of them use zonal marking either, do they?

Arsenal do I think. Or at least have in the past. It's quite hard to check unless you watch them often. A lot of continental teams do as well. I accept that they face less aerial threats in general though.

[kingfunk]

I AM now more than resigned to the fact that whenever Liverpool concede a goal from a dead ball, the usual raft of media pundits will leap upon the zonal marking bandwagon.

"But it doesn't work!" they say. "It's not the English way" "It's too easy to beat" and finally, "It just doesn't work".

It is not so much the criticism I dislike - no team should be above that, despite what Fergie says - it is more the way the perceived wisdom has become accepted fact, regardless of reality.

Because zonal marking took some time to bed in at Anfield, it was identified as a 'problem' and has never shaken off that tag, despite being the system Rafa has used throughout his managerial career, and which has been good enough to help his teams to a raft of silverware.

The reason it is still an issue? Because the media pundits always say it is, relentlessly and religiously, every single time -(The same pundits who said the club was in crisis after a below par start to the season - don't get me started on that one)

Never mind the fact that in Rafa's time as manager, Liverpool's record of conceding goals from set pieces is one of the best in the league after a regular hiccup when new players (Glen Johnson, Insua and Kygriakos this time) are bedding in each season.

And never mind there isn't a similar inquest whenever a team that doesn't use zonal marking concedes a goal at a corner or free kick, despite man for man marking's free pass in the media.

Take the West Ham game. Carlton Cole scored a header from a corner with a fantastic leap, despite being surrounded by three defenders. As Rafa said, sometimes you have to say well done, but according to the pundits, it undermined massive weaknesses in the team.

I'll say it again - three defenders were in position to challenge for the ball but were beaten by an attacker who did incredibly well and has developed his game massively this season.

Match of the Day also highlighted Johnson being isolated by drifting back towards his goal at a corner when everyone else went out, leaving three West Ham attackers onside. That's our new signing, who helped to set up the winning goal and is understandably still getting used to Rafa's methods.

They also didn't highlight the end of the clip, where Pepe Reina was clearly reminding him to follow the rest out. And did West ham get anything from the corner? That would be no.

I fully expect Johnson and the other new lads to fit into the system and our wobbles to ease as the season goes on, because they always have.

But I still expect the tiresome zonal marking debate to be wheeled out whenever Liverpool concede a goal, no matter how wrong-headed it is.

Just don't believe the hype - Rafa knows what he is doing.

[DannyMan2006]

Another set piece goal at the weekend. Very familar pattern is emerging, ball into the near post and flick across the goal with the ball nestling in at the back post. We can argue the merits of man or zonal marking forever, but what about sticking a man on the back post if not both posts? I don't see how one man on the back post would effect man marking or zonal marking. That's Spurs, Villa and West Ham all scored the same goal against us.

With the current zonal marking regime one thing is imperative, get Torres off the front post. He likes a header at the goal but he's not up for the defensive side. I'd have Kyut where Torres is at present and I'd have Mascherano who is never going to win a header on the back post.

I agree. We have XI men in the box yet feel the need to leave the goal posts free. Madness. Crazy how we can have XI men in the six yard box, yet Kevin Davies can get a tap in as the ball comes across goal, with not a single Liverpool player goal side.