Gerrard: I was 'devastated' when Alonso left Liverpool

[DannyMan2006]

I take it that is a caricature of our style of play, as obviously we barely won a game the second half of last season ......

We needed a plan B then and we need one even more now, I accept that, but at the same time that style of pressure/possession based football can be very successful. Especially if you play the team high up the pitch so that 'the line' is close to the attack. One problem we currently have is that we play too deep and struggle to get the ball out quickly from the back - hence any mistake puts the opposition in a decent position to attack.

The fact is that I also think that is a poor analysis of Alonso who can and did often play balls into attackers to create chances. He didn't run past players but with him in the side the idea has to be for the fullbacks to help out doing this. This season the same tactical argument holds with the fullbacks pushing forward balancing Lucas and Mascherano breaking less than, say, Lampard.

With that style of play you need creativity on the wings, or you place too much burden on your forwards to do the business. Chelsea use the full backs of Cole and Bosingwa to aid their cause, as well as having two fine forwards who not only compliement eact other, are in great form personally. They also have the added option of a Lampard/Deco/Cole playing behind the forwards, another creative option who can also add goals.

The differences between the Chelsea of this season, and the Liverpool team of last season are quite big. We played with two DM as opossed to Chelseas one, which means they can deploy an extra forward. Their full backs of this season are both superior in aiding the attack, giving them two extra wingers when teams sit back.

[BrianF80]

I take it that is a caricature of our style of play, as obviously we barely won a game the second half of last season ......

No it wasn't a caricature, it was how we played. We did not go on that run because of our woefully unbalanced midfield that provided next to zero goal threat. We went on that run because our forwards performed much better than anyone else's. Significantly.

The fact that Pepe Reina had the same # of assists as Mascherano and forgetting a couple of taps on indirect free kicks one less than Alonso, really tells you all you need to know about our CM last year. It's not an accident that Rafa has been looking to dismantle it for the last two years.

[Roboklopp]

Hmm. Alonso wasn't a direct influence on our attack but at the same time he did direct the way we played and hence the way we attacked. I also think that to divorce any team (and especially ours) into separate attack and defense sections is probably over simplistic. The way you transition from one to the other is key and last season Xabi was phenomenal at doing that well and quickly as well as keeping attacks going.

He played 31 games in the league last season according to wiki which is a fair chunk.

Added to the technical aspects the fact he was clearly a leader and someone who made other players feel comfortable keeping the ball simple and could create doing it was key to the way our team gelled as a unit.

Cheers for posting that- it is pretty mcuh how I wouldve repsonded to the word. Saved me the bother.

[BrianF80]

I take it that is a caricature of our style of play, as obviously we barely won a game the second half of last season ......

We needed a plan B then and we need one even more now, I accept that, but at the same time that style of pressure/possession based football can be very successful. Especially if you play the team high up the pitch so that 'the line' is close to the attack. One problem we currently have is that we play too deep and struggle to get the ball out quickly from the back - hence any mistake puts the opposition in a decent position to attack.

Pressure and possession is a means to an end. If there is no end, what's the point?

The fact is that I also think that is a poor analysis of Alonso who can and did often play balls into attackers to create chances.

Of course he can, most players can, but the fact is, it didn't happen often enough. Or do you think it did?

He didn't run past players but with him in the side the idea has to be for the fullbacks to help out doing this. This season the same tactical argument holds with the fullbacks pushing forward balancing Lucas and Mascherano breaking less than, say, Lampard.

Instead of pushing responsibilities that most teams rely on their CMs to do, to other positions, why not just get a player that can do the things he can't do often enough. A CM without a player who can consistently play a through ball is going to struggle and that's all Baresi is saying.

At some point a player's limitations prevent you from taking the next step regardless of his strengths. That's where we were.

[dww]

With that style of play you need creativity on the wings, or you place too much burden on your forwards to do the business. Chelsea use the full backs of Cole and Bosingwa to aid their cause, as well as having two fine forwards who not only compliement eact other, are in great form personally. They also have the added option of a Lampard/Deco/Cole playing behind the forwards, another creative option who can also add goals.

The differences between the Chelsea of this season, and the Liverpool team of last season are quite big. We played with two DM as opossed to Chelseas one, which means they can deploy an extra forward. Their full backs of this season are both superior in aiding the attack, giving them two extra wingers when teams sit back.

I kind of agree that you can place an extra burden on the forward players to create - in fact I've said as much that the Mascherano/Lucas partnership requires the three behind Torres to act more as playmakers. I think Gerrard in particular has struggled to do this and it's not naturally a strength of Kuyt.

With Alonso we hit Kuyt etc. quite quickly from the back and the structure worked - we are yet to get it working this season at all. United basically vacated midfield (as they have most of the season) and made things (comparatively) easy for us in my opinion.

I agree that at the minute that Chelsea are working well, however I think it is largely a factor of the form of Drogba and Anelka carrying a unit that tactically doesn't look any better than very solid. They do however move the ball back to front quickly in a way we don't at the minute. Partly it is a function of not playing two DMs with more limited passing range but I also think it is a function of having the option of the long ball to Drogba at all times making space for the midfield.

I think we have at times looked to have Lucas ahead of Mascherano and also have used Gerrard ahead of Lucas which is closer to having only one DM. While it has worked certainly in the Lucas behind Gerrard against poor teams guise it has over emphasised our weaknesses on the break.

The point about fullback quality is true in the sense of them functioning as wingers but I think Johnson and Insua are both better when they come inside (particularly Johnson who I much under rated before he came here as a ball player). I still think the problem is that other than Yossi none of the forward players likes to play as a creative midfield player rather than a deep forward. Having said that Kuyt roaming from central against United did a decent link and harry job and that may be a way of getting more from him in that role.

This has developed from a note into a long and somewhat tiresome post so I'm going to stop now.

[Roboklopp]

No it wasn't a caricature, it was how we played. We did not go on that run because of our woefully unbalanced midfield that provided next to zero goal threat. We went on that run because our forwards performed much better than anyone else's. Significantly.

The fact that Pepe Reina had the same # of assists as Mascherano and forgetting a couple of taps on indirect free kicks one less than Alonso, really tells you all you need to know about our CM last year. It's not an accident that Rafa has been looking to dismantle it for the last two years.

Because of the good possession we had & service they were given.

Would love to have seen Xabi providein the servie to our more attacking fullbacks too.

[dww]

Pressure possesion is a means to an end. If there is no end, what's the point?

I think in previous seasons we have shown that when we get it right it produces results. The fact that we are playing badly at the minute can, and should be, divorced from whether or not a style of play is useful.

Of course he can, most players can, but the fact is, it didn't happen often enough. Or do you think it did?

I think he did last season - a great deal of the time. His balls to Kuyt on the right in particular were a big feature of a lot of our goals.

Instead of pushing responsibilities that most teams rely on their CMs to do, to other positions, why not just get a player that can do the things he can't do often enough. A CM without a player who can consistently play a through ball is going to struggle and that's all Baresi is saying.

United in recent seasons often used a predominantly containing midfield and pushed creative responsibilities elsewhere. I don't think that they have struggled and I think Baresi is refering as much to the willingness to run with the ball as to play a through ball. I would contest the idea that Alonso can't play one any way.

[dww]

Because of the good possession we had & service they were given.

Would love to have seen Xabi providein the servie to our more attacking fullbacks too.

I think you always have to look at a team as holistic it is exceptionally rare that any team is really successful (i.e. challenges for the league) on the back of one player. Even when some players are more obviously knocking in the goals it is the team that allows them to do that. People went on about how United were dependent on Ronaldo but last season it was as much the defensive unit that won them the title and even before that they were a significant part of what allowed Ronaldo to play as freely as he did and giving him the ball in areas to hurt teams.

[BrianF80]

I think in previous seasons we have shown that when we get it right it produces results. The fact that we are playing badly at the minute can, and should be, divorced from whether or not a style of play is useful.

I think he did last season - a great deal of the time. His balls to Kuyt on the right in particular were a big feature of a lot of our goals.

United in recent seasons often used a predominantly containing midfield and pushed creative responsibilities elsewhere. I don't think that they have struggled and I think Baresi is refering as much to the willingness to run with the ball as to play a through ball. I would contest the idea that Alonso can't play one any way.

My point is not that you can't get by, my point is that you cannot reach your potential.

Between them Giggs, Scholes, Anderson and Carrick provided 30 assists?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Anyhow I take all your points, that midfield was unbalanced for me though and we needed to do something.

[dww]

My point is not that you can't get by, my point is that you cannot reach your potential.

Between them Giggs, Scholes, Anderson and Carrick provided 30 assists?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Anyhow I take all your points, that midfield was unbalanced for me though and we needed to do something.

I take your point about last seasons assists but in the first of their recent title wins the entire CM scored something like 3 with 5 direct assists. It was an exceptional team though which I think did reach it's potential. Last season I think we also reached our potential and what lost us the title was a lack of strength in depth in the attacking positions.

An alternative, and one I have been in favour of, is to have a more dynamic midfield. I have always said you need four CMs (and Stevie G should count as a forward) and a mix of styles. At the minute we have neither the numbers nor the variety at our disposal. At present the way our midfield/attack is structured isn't working and it needs to change, I think we would all agree with that.

[el matador]

I was watching the real madrid match yesterday and it was wierd watching him because on one had there was our xabi - the formidable playmaker and midfield dictator and on the other hand there was little lost xabi who didnt have a full grasp on what he was supposed to be doing.

The players at madrid are so ****ing stupid that they dont know what a gem they have in alonso. Until they get rid of ****heads like lassana diarra and pepe they wont win a thing. These two constantly ignored alonso and tried to make things happen themselves instead of giving it to him and letting him sort them out. Diarra in particular needs to realise that he is a ****ing donkey shagging ball winner and that he needs to give the ball to someone who actually knows what to do with it once he's won it back.

One thing however was crystal clear last night - Kaka is going to love playing with xabi as he did exactly what he was doing with gerrard - pass the ball quickly from the centre to him with space for him to turn and run at the defence.

time and time again alonso played that ball to kaka and it reminded me of how much we miss him.

[javier_monsterano]

I was watching the real madrid match yesterday and it was wierd watching him because on one had there was our xabi - the formidable playmaker and midfield dictator and on the other hand there was little lost xabi who didnt have a full grasp on what he was supposed to be doing.

The players at madrid are so ****ing stupid that they dont know what a gem they have in alonso. Until they get rid of ****heads like lassana diarra and pepe they wont win a thing. These two constantly ignored alonso and tried to make things happen themselves instead of giving it to him and letting him sort them out. Diarra in particular needs to realise that he is a ****ing donkey shagging ball winner and that he needs to give the ball to someone who actually knows what to do with it once he's won it back.

One thing however was crystal clear last night - Kaka is going to love playing with xabi as he did exactly what he was doing with gerrard - pass the ball quickly from the centre to him with space for him to turn and run at the defence.

time and time again alonso played that ball to kaka and it reminded me of how much we miss him.

Stop it mate.You will soon have me in tears too.Let's stop all this nonsense,let go he has long gone.Aquilani will have you all dribbling tonight.
I'll look out for the alonso who? thread later.

[BrianF80]

I take your point about last seasons assists but in the first of their recent title wins the entire CM scored something like 3 with 5 direct assists. It was an exceptional team though which I think did reach it's potential. Last season I think we also reached our potential and what lost us the title was a lack of strength in depth in the attacking positions.

It's about the balance though isn't it. When Ronaldo was beating teams on his own, the midfield didn't need to do much. So they screened. When he left they needed to take more responsibility and they were able to. That's our problem we don't have Ronaldo and our midfield wasn't able to make up the gap.

An alternative, and one I have been in favour of, is to have a more dynamic midfield. I have always said you need four CMs (and Stevie G should count as a forward) and a mix of styles. At the minute we have neither the numbers nor the variety at our disposal. At present the way our midfield/attack is structured isn't working and it needs to change, I think we would all agree with that.

Absolutely, it seems to me Rafa has been trying to switch back to a 4411 but unfortunately the back 4 has imploded and the current CM partnership isn't compensating enough either going forwards or backwards.