When is a dive not a dive?

[Big Dave]

Let's be fair to N'gog here. Ok, clearly it was a dive and the pen shouldn't have been given.

But let's credit the lad with actually making the effort to make something happen. That was an excellent run into the box, he was looking dangerous and he's forced Carsley to make a challenge and further forced the referee to make a decision.

We keep going on in post match threads that we're not forcing the issue and not creating enough, and then when we do, we don't like it! This is where we're differing from last season I think. How many times were we looking like losing/drawing games only to go really pushing for it and winning games! Man City and Fulham both spring to mind.

[Kenneth]

Let's be fair to N'gog here. Ok, clearly it was a dive and the pen shouldn't have been given.

But let's credit the lad with actually making the effort to make something happen. That was an excellent run into the box, he was looking dangerous and he's forced Carsley to make a challenge and further forced the referee to make a decision.

We keep going on in post match threads that we're not forcing the issue and not creating enough, and then when we do, we don't like it! This is where we're differing from last season I think. How many times were we looking like losing/drawing games only to go really pushing for it and winning games! Man City and Fulham both spring to mind.

He played well, especially in the first half. He was praised continually in the match thread and rightly so. However, diving for a pen does not equate to 'forcing the issue' or 'creating enough', so I have no idea what you are getting at.

[Chrono]

He played well, especially in the first half. He was praised continually in the match thread and rightly so. However, diving for a pen does not equate to 'forcing the issue' or 'creating enough', so I have no idea what you are getting at.

[Jack D Rips]

Reds boss Benitez has been under fierce pressure for weeks, and a draw against the newly-promoted Midlanders is nothing for the Merseysiders to shout about.

But their point came from a huge slice of luck when referee Peter Walton awarded a penalty against Lee Carsley for a tackle on David Ngog that made no contact with ball or opponent.

Birmingham boss Alex McLeish accused the French youngster of diving, and Benitez admitted the penalty should not have been given.

Ngog had grabbed an early lead for Liverpool, who were stunned by two goals before the break by Christian Benitez and Cameron Jerome to give Birmingham the lead.

The penalty came midway through a one-sided second period, with Steven Gerrard - on as a substitute - ramming the spot-kick past Joe Hart.

McLeish was left fuming, saying: "There is no real debate, Ngog has dived to win his team a penalty, it happens in the game and has done for years and years.

"The referee didn't get that one right, and when he looks at it again I am sure he will agree.

"He's an honest enough guy, but he will probably agree that their player dived, and it was a terrific dive. Lee Carsley never touched him."

He added: "Lee dived in, and when you do that there is always a risk. But on this occasion there was no contact. That was not even close to being a penalty.

"I felt we were comfortable, but apart from when Gerrard made a late run to hit the post, I felt my defenders and the whole team were awesome.

"We scored two fine goals, a good set-piece for Benitez to get his first goal for us and then Jerome's cracker. It was a goal from the second it left his foot.

"The players deserve a lot of credit for the way the fought for everything."

And when quizzed on the penalty decision, Benitez conceded his side were fortunate.

He said: "We scored with a penalty that probably wasn't a penalty, but we deserved to win the game.

"It was clear, it was not a penalty, even if that works against us.

"There have been many times this season that we have not been awarded penalties we should have had.

"I have asked Ngog and he said that maybe it wasn't a penalty, either."

Benitez, who now has Yossi Benayoun and Albert Riera suffering from hamstring injuries, revealed that Fernando Torres "did not feel confident to play."

Torres is struggling with a groin problem, and Benitez said: "Torres was not confident, we have now started a three-week course of treatment and we will have to see how he reacts. We are not considering an operation yet


http://www.teamtalk.com/football/sto...685957,00.html

"Lee dived in"

Silly thing to do Lee, especially when you miss the ball by a yard

[fred_plasticine]

he dived.
the fact of the matter is that had he jumped over carsley the ball would have been gone and almost certainly there wouldn't have been a penalty.
that's why "clever" players like gerrard know how to make contact in these kinds of situation to get the pen and not be labelled a diver.
fact is however that players should be encouraged to stay on their feet - meaning that a pen should be awarded when a player dives in like carsley, misses the ball but clearly putting the attacking out off his stride.

[Leyton388]

A dive is not a dive when you play for LFC. Anyway **** the brum ****s. They are bitter ****s just like they were after the 2001 league cup final when they said we should let them have the cup for half the season cos they played well that day.

[Lee]

"Lee dived in"

Silly thing to do Lee, especially when you miss the ball by a yard

Sorry mate

[Joe King]

I hate diving but I hate Carsley more so **** him.

[Aza]

Kyle lafferty on SSN discussing the incident...

"I'd cheat to win a penalty; I'm an honest guy so I don't mind admitting it."

Pardon

[Joe King]

Kyle lafferty on SSN discussing the incident...

"I'd cheat to win a penalty; I'm an honest guy so I don't mind admitting it."

Pardon

Didn't he feint a headbutt once?

[Havors]

yes technically he dived..... but it was still a penalty because of the reckless challenge from carsley. If Ngog had not jumped and dived he would have been taken out and risked injury. Intent to foul is just as punishable as actually fouling.

Gerrard's on the other hand was a blatent dive as he was in no danger of being fouled, he just jumped on the floor.

[BFG]

Definite penalty, he nearly took poor Dave's head off.

What's almost as puzzling as the penalty decision is the decision to book N'gog for getting pushed around by Birmingham players. The ref got pretty much everything wrong in that incident.

[Exiled_red]

Definite penalty, he nearly took poor Dave's head off.

What's almost as puzzling as the penalty decision is the decision to book N'gog for getting pushed around by Birmingham players. The ref got pretty much everything wrong in that incident.

Yeah I wondered what that was all about

[tiktu]

Definite penalty, he nearly took poor Dave's head off.

What's almost as puzzling as the penalty decision is the decision to book N'gog for getting pushed around by Birmingham players. The ref got pretty much everything wrong in that incident.

Just watched the video about this incident and was nice to see how Lucas came to stand between Carsley(?) and N'Gog and was pushing him and couple of other Brum players away from N'Gog. Shortly Mascher joined the party also.

One step further from N'Gog and he would have been hit quite hard and it would have been stone cold penalty but he decided to prevent to hit and jump early.

[dww]

It was a dive - he clearly started going before the tackle even reached him.

I think that actually technically it was a penalty (like the penalty that Gerrard against Sheffield United a few years ago) due to the part of the rule flagged up by the OP. That said it is a rule that clearly isn't supposed to be interpreted like that and usually isn't. I'm not sure where I stand on the issue actually - in the Gerrard situation the tackle clearly prevented him being able to get to the ball as he had to hurdle it with Ngog he had started to go down without really trying to get the ball. I don't like to add intent of the player into any rule as referees aren't psychic and generally all it does is give them an out for any decision they make.

Also I think the FA treat referees really badly in this sort of situation - it was hard for him to see it perfectly and now he is out of the PL fixtures next week. They should judge referees on longer periods of time than a single decision. They back referees in all the wrong situations and it does undermine confidence in the whole structure.