We're Out - Whinge Here

[The Erectile Banana]

Reading comments about how unacceptable it is for us not to get out of the group stages of the Champions League and Rafa must go etc etc just reinforces the point to me that we don't half have a lot of impatient, short sighted people following our club (the word support isn't appropriate here) that really don't understand the job Benitez has done for us.

The fact that we more or less now take for granted something that we were overjoyed to achieve under his immediate predecessors should say something about the progress we have made. We've probably played in the European Cup as many times since Rafa's been here than we did in the 15 years before he arrived.

We're all disappointed and it's a kick in the teeth but one bad season which has been blighted with injuries and a profit in the transfer market doesn't mean we should ditch the man that has made us a top 5 European club again. We expect more than this because of the taste of global success that we've had since 2004 but we'll still finish in the top four and the building process should go on. Getting rid of a very good manager part of the way through his work because of a really poor opening half to a season could have dreadful consequences for us for years to come IMO. He's a great manager and we simply have no other option but to keep him and get behind him and the lads at the moment.

It's either that or moan and cry and get behind Klinsmann or someone of that ilk because there's very little previous from the owners to suggest they'd deliver a Hiddink or Mourinho (spits) in the event of Rafa going.

No one is denying that we have come a long way under Benitez. He has been much more successful than managers who have come before him.

What is not acceptable is a run of two wins in eleven games. This is not just a blip. This is unacceptable for any club with our aspirations and it would have been just an unacceptable under Evans or Houllier.

We won tonight, which is great, but I saw nothing in our play to suggest that we are improving or to give me confidence for forthcoming matches.

I find it difficult to fathom how we can fall from nearly winning the league last season to barely being able to function at times this. Yes, we have had injury problems, but the sides we have been putting out should be capable of doing much better.

[BFG]

No one is denying that we have come a long way under Benitez. He has been much more successful than managers who have come before him.

What is not acceptable is a run of two wins in eleven games. This is not just a blip. This is unacceptable for any club with our aspirations and it would have been just an unacceptable under Evans or Houllier.

We won tonight, which is great, but I saw nothing in our play to suggest that we are improving or to give me confidence for forthcoming matches.

I find it difficult to fathom how we can fall from nearly winning the league last season to barely being able to function at times this. Yes, we have had injury problems, but the sides we have been putting out should be capable of doing much better.

I agree with all of that apart from the first line mate, people clearly are. It hasn't been good enough but we've been in a rut and confidence has drained out of the squad. It takes time to turn things around under such circumstances and constantly having your best players injured doesn't help to achieve that.

I'm just saying I think the progress Rafa has made should afford him the time to turn things around and it's far too early to be calling for his head. Looking at his reign in entirity he's done very well.

[The Erectile Banana]

I agree with all of that apart from the first line mate, people clearly are. It hasn't been good enough but we've been in a rut and confidence has drained out of the squad. It takes time to turn things around under such circumstances and constantly having your best players injured doesn't help to achieve that.

I'm just saying I think the progress Rafa has made should afford him the time to turn things around and it's far too early to be calling for his head. Looking at his reign in entirity he's done very well.

I agree with your general sentiment mate but the question for me is how long do you give Rafa to turn things around?

If we lose against Everton on Sunday, which is very possible, we will be in a pretty dicey position in the league. Do you let Rafa struggle on in the hope he secures fourth place? Do you run the risk of this season becoming a total write off and financial disaster for the club?

I've always been a big fan of Rafa's and have had a lot of time for him. Normally I would back calls to give him until the end of the season. However, there's just something in the way that we are playing that deeply worries me. I can accept low confidence, but we have no spirit, no fight. Is that transmitting itself to the players from the manager? Rafa has been very resigned, philosphical about things lately. Clearly he is struggling, but he seems unable to turn it around. Has he run out of ideas? Has he taken the club as far as he can? These are questions that I find myself asking.

No matter how good your past record if you go on such a sustained run of bad form and results you are going to come under severe pressure, and rightly so. The old maxim goes that you are only as good as your last game. I have supported Rafa up until now but if we lose against Everton I may have to reconsider my position.

[BFG]

I'm convinced he'll turn it around mate. Every year we seem to have a period when opinion seems to turning against him and he always turns it around. You can't keep a good man down and I'm still 100% confident we'll find some form soon and finish in the top 4.

[The Erectile Banana]

I'm convinced he'll turn it around mate. Every year we seem to have a period when opinion seems to turning against him and he always turns it around. You can't keep a good man down and I'm still 100% confident we'll find some form soon and finish in the top 4.

I hope you're right mate, although the current crisis seems a lot more serious than anything he has endured before. I would love for Rafa to prove us wrong and for the team to go on a fantastic unbeaten run. I can't see it happening but I live in hope.

[vonk]

We've been on a dreadful run, confidence is shot and were playing away in the Champions League. We won. You don't need excuses when you win and you don't have to play well. Hopefully it's the start of a turnaround and with all our players fit we're a match for anyone, unfortunately when you take 5 or 6 of our very best players out of the equation, we're a little light in back up.

If you don't see what affect a few £30million pound players would have on our squad then I'm a little flabbergasted to be honest, modern football is largely about who has the most money.

I will say one thing though, imagine bringing on Tevez instead of Voronin, Berbatov instead of Babel, imagine not having to buy Kyrgiakos. Imagine having money to spend in the transfer market and not just some of the money you recoup from selling other players. They're not excuses, they're genuinely the constraints that Rafa, and any manager that took his place would be working with. This season could and should have been better and everyone needs a kick up the arse but if you're totally unwilling to look at the circumstances that our manager has to work under then you're not really in a position to make an informed opinion on his performance.

This is the line everyone is trotting out... oh, but were on a terrible run and confidence is low. Don't you see that this is not an excuse, this is the result!! Why are we on a terrible run? Why have we been out of the title race by Christmas 5 out of 6 seasons? Why are 10 international players not capable of putting in at least a decent performance against the 6th best team in Hungary? A couple of 30m pounds players? It won't change the defensive mindset or the dross tactics.

[vonk]

I'm convinced he'll turn it around mate. Every year we seem to have a period when opinion seems to turning against him and he always turns it around. You can't keep a good man down and I'm still 100% confident we'll find some form soon and finish in the top 4.

Every year bar one we have a bad period that rules us out of contention. The thing that separates the title winners from the dross is consistency. The ability to bounce back immediately from a setback. We seem to fall into these inconsistent spells too much. It's not the form of title winners.

[BFG]

This is the line everyone is trotting out... oh, but were on a terrible run and confidence is low. Don't you see that this is not an excuse, this is the result!! Why are we on a terrible run? Why have we been out of the title race by Christmas 5 out of 6 seasons? Why are 10 international players not capable of putting in at least a decent performance against the 6th best team in Hungary? A couple of 30m pounds players? It won't change the defensive mindset or the dross tactics.

Do you think our spending allows for a title challenge every year, or any year for that matter or are things like transfer fees and wages irrelevant to you?

The difference a couple of £30mil players makes is that when Torres and Gerrard are injured we'd have players of similar quality to replace them like Chelsea, City and the Mancs do, not ****ing Voronin and a promising French kid we paid a million and a half for. If we'd have had those players our results would have been much better in this injury plagued period, the confidence wouldn't have been hit so hard and people wouldn't be panicing.

How the **** are we defensive apart from in the eyes of a complete herbert like Merson? We scored more goals than anyone last year and although we've had two holding midfielders while Aquialani's been out we also have two of the most attacking full backs in the league.

[BFG]

Every year bar one we have a bad period that rules us out of contention. The thing that separates the title winners from the dross is consistency. The ability to bounce back immediately from a setback. We seem to fall into these inconsistent spells too much. It's not the form of title winners.

It's also stability and strength in depth. You get strength in depth by either spending massive money or being extremely patient while a manager with his hands tied does his best to incrementally improve his playing staff.

[vonk]

Do you think our spending allows for a title challenge every year, or any year for that matter or are things like transfer fees and wages irrelevant to you?

The difference a couple of £30mil players makes is that when Torres and Gerrard are injured we'd have players of similar quality to replace them like Chelsea, City and the Mancs do, not ****ing Voronin and a promising French kid we paid a million and a half for. If we'd have had those players our results would have been much better in this injury plagued period, the confidence wouldn't have been hit so hard and people wouldn't be panicing.

How the **** are we defensive apart from in the eyes of a complete herbert like Merson? We scored more goals than anyone last year and although we've had two holding midfielders while Aquialani's been out we also have two of the most attacking full backs in the league.

BPG, your points are all about personel, nothing about the way we play. We have scored 4 goals this season in the CL. We play every game now with two defensive midfielders and then when we break forward its NGog, Gerrard and Kuyt (maybe). The rest are miles behind. Your argument is that if we were Real Madrid spending millions on players then we would win the league. Therefore City will win the league this season? My point is that the football we play, for the talent we have in that team, is dross and defensive. Rafa is not getting the best out of the players we have. We are underachieving.

[vonk]

It's also stability and strength in depth. You get strength in depth by either spending massive money or being extremely patient while a manager with his hands tied does his best to incrementally improve his playing staff.

So we don't have lots of money. How does he improve the playing staff? On paper we have a team that can win it, and if you want to mention last year, then last year proved it. We had bad injuries last season too. I don't buy it's about players. A good manager can motivate and organise any players at his disposal. I can't but think that Hiddink or Mourinho would be getting more out of these players. Jesus, at this point I just want to see us play some bloody football. It would be a start.

[BFG]

BPG, your points are all about personel, nothing about the way we play. We have scored 4 goals this season in the CL. We play every game now with two defensive midfielders and then when we break forward its NGog, Gerrard and Kuyt (maybe). The rest are miles behind. Your argument is that if we were Real Madrid spending millions on players then we would win the league. Therefore City will win the league this season? My point is that the football we play, for the talent we have in that team, is dross and defensive. Rafa is not getting the best out of the players we have. We are underachieving.

We've had a poor spell but I don't believe in judging a manager on a ten game period, especially when most of our best players have been unavailable in that time. We are in no way shape or form a defensive team, that's a total fallacy.

During the manager's whole time here he has transformed the club and made us a force again, we have massively overachieved. We should have got more points out of the last 10 games, I'm sure Rafa would be the first to admit that but because of the excellent work he's done in the past 5 years I think for now he deserves our faith that he'll turn it around.

[Maxiedge]

We've had a poor spell but I don't believe in judging a manager on a ten game period, especially when most of our best players have been unavailable in that time. We are in no way shape or form a defensive team, that's a total fallacy.

During the manager's whole time here he has transformed the club and made us a force again, we have massively overachieved. We should have got more points out of the last 10 games, I'm sure Rafa would be the first to admit that but because of the excellent work he's done in the past 5 years I think for now he deserves our faith that he'll turn it around.

Really? I think we've got everything we've derserved. Realistically, we've had to weather the storm due to injuries but we haven't really done that too well.

I was pretty pleased with the Man city result because of circumstances but last nights game was just shocking. Even with injuries, there were still players out there with hefty price tags but we continued to play long ball against a weaker side. Sad state of affairs; however I am 100% sure we'll play better as the season progresses.

[ronanm]

We've had a poor spell but I don't believe in judging a manager on a ten game period, especially when most of our best players have been unavailable in that time. We are in no way shape or form a defensive team, that's a total fallacy.

During the manager's whole time here he has transformed the club and made us a force again, we have massively overachieved. We should have got more points out of the last 10 games, I'm sure Rafa would be the first to admit that but because of the excellent work he's done in the past 5 years I think for now he deserves our faith that he'll turn it around.

Eh, overacheived? We've won a CL, an FAC. having spent more than everyone except ManUre and Chelski. Hardly overachievement. A league or two, another FAC perhaps, but we have not overachieved ffs. I judge a manager on what he wins.

[little dave hedgehog]

Eh, overacheived? We've won a CL, an FAC. having spent more than everyone except ManUre and Chelski. Hardly overachievement. A league or two, another FAC perhaps, but we have not overachieved ffs. I judge a manager on what he wins.

sadly, this is exactly what happened.