Standards

[Sadgeek]

The problem mate is that Rafa didn't have any money to sign a replacement for Torres. This has been well documented. Maybe some people would have preferred buying a striker rather than a midfielder?

Would that be a fit striker instead of a crocked midfielder who hasn't started a game yet, and hasn't been given the chance to play more than 60 minutes of football in 4 months?

Tough call...

[Guest]

Would that be a fit striker instead of a crocked midfielder who hasn't started a game yet, and hasn't been given the chance to play more than 60 minutes of football in 4 months?

Tough call...

Hasn't been 'given a chance'? He was injured, he's been fit only for a month or so. We can't judge Aquilani now as we haven't seen him yet. IF he proves to be as good as some people have been saying than maybe it would have been a good choice.

The point I was trying to make is that we couldn't have both, i.e one striker plus one midfielder.

[dww]

It has become a routine that if we criticize Rafa even though i still think thay he is a great manager, many will slate us back.

Throughout the pre season for example, more than half of the people in this forum (and as news reported the Liverpool players) were in favour of Rafa signing Michael Owen. On this forum also many prefered Sneijder. He didn't and he wanted Aquiliani and he prefered to sign no one upfront. The consequences were tragic imo.

Many young supporters who don't remember Kenny's team of the 80's seem to be happy with Liverpool being 3rd, 4th etc... but this is Liverpool we're talking about!!!

The thing is that Rafa has gone on record saying he/we wanted another signing but it didn't happen. There are any number of reasons for that. The one that seems least likely is that Rafa was totally happy with the squad as it is/was.

This argument that anyone is happy being 3rd, 4th whatever is a bit of a red herring really. No one is happy, everyone wants to win. The fact is though that we threw away our advantages from the later years of the Dalglish era for the best part of a decade and haven't at any point had the single large investment that has seen the likes of Chelsea improve vastly from a 4th to 5th type team to a 1st or 2nd one means though that we have to be realistic. Given the current financial situation realistically ourselves and Arsenal should most seasons be 3rd or 4th and good management will allow us to challenge (as we did last year) ever few years.

As far as I can see the only way out of that is to have a long term plan that brings through a base of excellent young players schooled in a particular way of playing. Arsenal are more advanced down that route than we are because Wenger started modernising their club way before we thought about it and has had a consistent regime in place for a long time.

Rafa is not perfect but I think he is doing as good a job as anyone could do. Mistakes have been made and at the minute some of them are costing us but we are and will be for the forseeable future a long term project that needs time to develop.

I hate the way the debate has broken down in to far too many people not discussing the issues but either feeling that criticism of Rafa deserves comments about how posters are unfit to support the team an don the other side making comments that people are happy to not be winning the league. It's so reductive and dull.

[Guest]

People want instant success David, they are getting frustrated because they want to challenge NOW. I don't think 5 years is enough to see an overhaul of the club like Rafa is doing. I also think that Houllier would have been successful too if he had been given more time. Parry & Co got rid of him too quickly too IMO. We had two years of 'staleness' with him and he was gone at the end of the second year.

How can we aspire for continuity if we are as short sighted as that. Ferguson got seven years at Utd. When you look at it they were right to stick with him. He was average in his first 6 seasons and even when he won the league for the first time, he won it by the scruff of the neck.

The first title after so many years is always the most difficult. Rafa has raised a lot of expectations by winning us the CL, the FA Cup and by constantly improving in the league year in year out. We are having a bad season, but this shouldn't let us lose our focus on the big picture. The club is progressing behind the scenes, our Marketing strategy seems to be spot on, we have a website which attracts the most visits for a football team, we are doing the right things in developing links with academies all over the world and our youth teams are progressing nicely.

Those things need time. It will all click when we will least expect it.

[dww]

People want instant success David, they are getting frustrated because they want to challenge NOW. I don't think 5 years is enough to see an overhaul of the club like Rafa is doing. I also think that Houllier would have been successful too if he had been given more time. Parry & Co got rid of him too quickly too IMO. We had two years of 'staleness' with him and he was gone at the end of the second year.

I think at a club like ours two years of staleness is a problem. I don't mean that two years of non-progress in the league but I mean two years of not seeing changes within the squad or problems addressed. Houllier seemed to have a limited blue print and when the basics failed he did not change things. He also repeatedly failed to show the courage of his convictions in terms of adding creativity/flair to the team. As such while I was saddened at the time I think the correct decision was made.

I think that there are important differences in the Rafa era now to Houllier then - we have seen changes of style (addition of Riera to give width last season, attacking fullbacks this) and obvious attempts to alter the blueprint. We have also seen a willingness to bring in and develop young players that was less apparent at the end of the Houllier regime. I think patience is a virtue in this situation but at the same time we can't just grant a a manger a guarantee of a long term position unless they show they are making progress - even if the fruits of that work may be a way off.

It seems like the youth and reserve teams have been improved by the changes made in the summer to me. The first team has obviously dipped but injuries and the loss of key leaders (which we couldn't help and wasn't an active decision by Rafa) have been obvious identifiable causes.

How can we aspire for continuity if we are as short sighted as that. Ferguson got seven years at Utd. When you look at it they were right to stick with him. He was average in his first 6 seasons and even when he won the league for the first time, he won it by the scruff of the neck.

The first title after so many years is always the most difficult. Rafa has raised a lot of expectations by winning us the CL, the FA Cup and by constantly improving in the league year in year out. We are having a bad season, but this shouldn't let us lose our focus on the big picture. The club is progressing behind the scenes, our Marketing strategy seems to be spot on, we have a website which attracts the most visits for a football team, we are doing the right things in developing links with academies all over the world and our youth teams are progressing nicely.

Those things need time. It will all click when we will least expect it.

I agree but in order for the long term plan to work out we do need to get to 4th this season and by the end of the season have the team gelled as a unit as it has been in previous seasons. This time however we really need to see a number of fringe players developed ready to give depth next season.

[red g]

Would that be a fit striker instead of a crocked midfielder who hasn't started a game yet, and hasn't been given the chance to play more than 60 minutes of football in 4 months?

Tough call...

a crocked midfielder who would be worth 30m if he wasnt crocked, we got a bargain

[red g]

This isn't just another bad patch. Its a ****ing disaster. To be out of both the top competitions in November is a disaster.

Rafa went into the season completely unprepared. We needed 3 things-

1- A striker
2- Alonso's replacement
3- Hyypia's replacement

We didn't get a striker, Alonso's replacement is back 3 months later than expected and after the season started we rushed into signing a defender and ended up signing a crap, average defender who has never ever ever proven himself as being reliable.

Further to that add the injury problems, add that Rafa has made many bad decisions and remains stubborn in the face of obvious deficiencies.

In times of crisis, I expected better from Rafa. Much better

although are you blaming rafa or the board

lets face it if we could have afforded 2.5 more million we would have had turner instead of the greek and probably srill be in the champions league.

Rafa's biggest mistake was over acheiving last season!!! the owners decided to ignore Rafa's ewishes and look where we are!!

[Guest]

I think at a club like ours two years of staleness is a problem. I don't mean that two years of non-progress in the league but I mean two years of not seeing changes within the squad or problems addressed. Houllier seemed to have a limited blue print and when the basics failed he did not change things. He also repeatedly failed to show the courage of his convictions in terms of adding creativity/flair to the team. As such while I was saddened at the time I think the correct decision was made.

I think that there are important differences in the Rafa era now to Houllier then - we have seen changes of style (addition of Riera to give width last season, attacking fullbacks this) and obvious attempts to alter the blueprint. We have also seen a willingness to bring in and develop young players that was less apparent at the end of the Houllier regime. I think patience is a virtue in this situation but at the same time we can't just grant a a manger a guarantee of a long term position unless they show they are making progress - even if the fruits of that work may be a way off.

It seems like the youth and reserve teams have been improved by the changes made in the summer to me. The first team has obviously dipped but injuries and the loss of key leaders (which we couldn't help and wasn't an active decision by Rafa) have been obvious identifiable causes.



I agree but in order for the long term plan to work out we do need to get to 4th this season and by the end of the season have the team gelled as a unit as it has been in previous seasons. This time however we really need to see a number of fringe players developed ready to give depth next season.

As regards Ged, I think he was hampered by his time 'off' as a result of his heart condition. He was never the same afterwards, or to put it better, he took time to get back to where he was prior to that. I think this is a fair assessment of what happened to him, as we were progressing very nicely with him in charge, and the players all seemed to bond well with him. As ever, fans pressure got the best of him and Parry didn't have the courage to fight it off.

I am not asking for giving managers long term plans without a sound blueprint, but I think we were getting somewhere with Ged, which is also the same situation with Rafa right now. The man has got to be stubborn, if not he'll look like a clown who changes his mind based on fans' 'hissy fits'. He has got to have a continuity of thought, like for example, not playing Aquilani when the team is low on confidence and not playing well. Those things have lots of legitimacy and to me shows that he has a plan and his courageous enough to incur the wrath of some fans.

Patience is a virtue as you say. If it takes two more years then so be it.

[dww]

As regards Ged, I think he was hampered by his time 'off' as a result of his heart condition. He was never the same afterwards, or to put it better, he took time to get back to where he was prior to that. I think this is a fair assessment of what happened to him, as we were progressing very nicely with him in charge, and the players all seemed to bond well with him. As ever, fans pressure got the best of him and Parry didn't have the courage to fight it off.

I can see that point of view. I'm not sure that I buy it completely though. One of the major points against Houllier in my view was his inability to replace key staff when they left and keep things developing and the fact he didn't seem to have faith in many players and in particular very few young players got games or loans to help them develop.

By contrast Rafa has lost key lieutenants and replaced them.

He has given a number of young players games (many would argue fewer than they might have liked but it is difficult to know). He seems to judge players quite quickly - for example Guthrie was given a few chances and then loaned with a view to a sale - I think this is a good trait as we need to identify the players who we are willing to invest effort in (see Insua and Ngog and to a lesser degree El Zhar and possibly Kelly).

Houllier seemed tied to his mistakes - Rafa has often at the end of a season despite sticking to a player through out it turned around and cut them loose if he felt they weren't contributing.

I am not asking for giving managers long term plans without a sound blueprint, but I think we were getting somewhere with Ged, which is also the same situation with Rafa right now. The man has got to be stubborn, if not he'll look like a clown who changes his mind based on fans' 'hissy fits'. He has got to have a continuity of thought, like for example, not playing Aquilani when the team is low on confidence and not playing well. Those things have lots of legitimacy and to me shows that he has a plan and his courageous enough to incur the wrath of some fans.

Patience is a virtue as you say. If it takes two more years then so be it.

[Vermilion]

So criticising Rafa causes posters to give you stick, well spare a thought for those who are basing their judgement of Rafa on previous seasons and the task at hand, and not just this run of form.

They get stick too, for being part of the RCNWB and having nothing but BLIND faith. etc etc.

[BillobShaisley]

Ged was saved by his time off. The season Thomo managed us was our most successfull. He'd lost the plot by the end and probablty would have gone sooner without that years results. Shipping out Anelka for Diouf was symptomatic of the quest to be different that ultimately brought him down. Raffas moves from left field have all been due to restrictions not out of choice.

[peekay]

As regards Ged, I think he was hampered by his time 'off' as a result of his heart condition. He was never the same afterwards, or to put it better, he took time to get back to where he was prior to that. I think this is a fair assessment of what happened to him, as we were progressing very nicely with him in charge, and the players all seemed to bond well with him. As ever, fans pressure got the best of him and Parry didn't have the courage to fight it off.

I am not asking for giving managers long term plans without a sound blueprint, but I think we were getting somewhere with Ged, which is also the same situation with Rafa right now. The man has got to be stubborn, if not he'll look like a clown who changes his mind based on fans' 'hissy fits'. He has got to have a continuity of thought, like for example, not playing Aquilani when the team is low on confidence and not playing well. Those things have lots of legitimacy and to me shows that he has a plan and his courageous enough to incur the wrath of some fans.

Patience is a virtue as you say. If it takes two more years then so be it.

Great post there PeteBest. I wish I had the courage as you have. I am not a Rafa basher but my confidence has been on a wane this season.

I know injuries and poor form, can have a significant impact on the football, but the last few weeks have been terrible. Our injury woes are easing up. It looks like we are finding excuses to cover up our poor form - Gerrard/Torres/Agger/ Owners etc. They are legitimate excuses. However we seem to be making a habit of finding excuses. Great teams, have a unique style of play and go out there and stamp their authority on the game irrespective of the circumstances.

We did that last season. Irrespective of whether Gerrard and Torres played, we played some breathtaking attacking football. It is no coincidence that we displayed the swagger, the belief of champions when we played that way- pummeling opposition into submission, late comebacks, injury time winners etc.

This season we have lost that - period. Injuries have played a role - no doubt about it. But we also seem to be paranoid of playing one attacking CM. Based on the last two performances, I am guessing that Rafa has decided that the way out of this **** form is back to the wall defending and hope that our strikers will convert the only chance or two we create.

There seems to be a dangerous parallel to Houllier. Houllier bough Kewell and tried to go attacking. When it did not work, he did not have the conviction or the nouse to tweak the system. He then went back to the back to the wall defending mode and things went downhill from there.

Whatever team the Mancs put out, more than often they manage to play attractive attacking football. It is a credit to Ferguson that after all these years, he has stuck to that philosophy. They buy players to fit that philosophy and thats why they are able to extract the maximum out of each player.

[dww]

Great post there PeteBest. I wish I had the courage as you have. I am not a Rafa basher but my confidence has been on a wane this season.

I know injuries and poor form, can have a significant impact on the football, but the last few weeks have been terrible. Our injury woes are easing up. It looks like we are finding excuses to cover up our poor form - Gerrard/Torres/Agger/ Owners etc. They are legitimate excuses. However we seem to be making a habit of finding excuses. Great teams, have a unique style of play and go out there and stamp their authority on the game irrespective of the circumstances.

We did that last season. Irrespective of whether Gerrard and Torres played, we played some breathtaking attacking football. It is no coincidence that we displayed the swagger, the belief of champions when we played that way- pummeling opposition into submission, late comebacks, injury time winners etc.

This season we have lost that - period. Injuries have played a role - no doubt about it. But we also seem to be paranoid of playing one attacking CM. Based on the last two performances, I am guessing that Rafa has decided that the way out of this **** form is back to the wall defending and hope that our strikers will convert the only chance or two we create.

There seems to be a dangerous parallel to Houllier. Houllier bough Kewell and tried to go attacking. When it did not work, he did not have the conviction or the nouse to tweak the system. He then went back to the back to the wall defending mode and things went downhill from there.

Whatever team the Mancs put out, more than often they manage to play attractive attacking football. It is a credit to Ferguson that after all these years, he has stuck to that philosophy. They buy players to fit that philosophy and thats why they are able to extract the maximum out of each player.

I think that you misrepresent what Rafa attempts to do - I don't think he ever aimed to have back to the wall defense and use simply the break but rather to control the way the game is played and where is is played. That was the basis for our good play last season. The trouble is that when you lack confidence most teams drop deep instinctively as we have done and that makes it harder to do what we want to do.

I do think there is an argument that we need an alternative approach but in general I think we need to have more players who can bring variety to the style we have now. I can see that this leads to criticism of Rafa not having bought the right number of players that fit his style and that to some degree is fair - however he has been working under constraints.

The two huge advantages that Fergie has enjoyed are that he has rarely had to sell players and when they have wanted to leave he has in general had a season to assess alternative strategies and secondly he had complete control of the youth setup for a long period of time. It's no coincidence that they have a raft of players able to fill in when the team has played in more or less the same way for the best part of two decades. We have had several complete reorganisations in that time and only now do we seem to have a coordinated youth to first team development pipeline setup.

I think we have any number of times tweaked our system under Rafa and have arguably done it a few times already this season. I think the parallels to Houllier are hugely over stated and the sort of thing that come around when ever we do badly.

[gentingfrmhell]

People want instant success David, they are getting frustrated because they want to challenge NOW. I don't think 5 years is enough to see an overhaul of the club like Rafa is doing. I also think that Houllier would have been successful too if he had been given more time. Parry & Co got rid of him too quickly too IMO. We had two years of 'staleness' with him and he was gone at the end of the second year.

How can we aspire for continuity if we are as short sighted as that. Ferguson got seven years at Utd. When you look at it they were right to stick with him. He was average in his first 6 seasons and even when he won the league for the first time, he won it by the scruff of the neck.

The first title after so many years is always the most difficult. Rafa has raised a lot of expectations by winning us the CL, the FA Cup and by constantly improving in the league year in year out. We are having a bad season, but this shouldn't let us lose our focus on the big picture. The club is progressing behind the scenes, our Marketing strategy seems to be spot on, we have a website which attracts the most visits for a football team, we are doing the right things in developing links with academies all over the world and our youth teams are progressing nicely.

Those things need time. It will all click when we will least expect it.

i have to say this but our website looks like **** and is in a mess. they should revamp it with the chelsea website as reference. btw how do you know it attracts the most visits? just curious.

[SK]

i don't know what to think, i've stopped to bother looking for streams for our matches, and if our game isn't shown on the telly here i don't even bother watching. its poor football, that's all i can say.

p.s. dww and petebest - your posts in this thread have been a joy to read, keep it up lads