Injuries? Bollocks

[BFG]

Getting more out of your players

I just think that we have a large squad and although parts are weak they still compare favourably to other squads who get far more out of their players. I would say Rafa does not get enough out of average players, that's all.

Ah, I don't agree with that either, I just think there's a couple of squads (Mancs, Chelsea) who have spent a considerable amount more on players than we have and hence have greater strength in depth. Your example just shows to me that they have more utility players than we have and that's a valid criticism of Rafa IMO.

I know we're not third at the moment so people will feel justified in fiercely criticising the manager but that's where I think we'll end up in May.

[red g]

He dared to not start him ahead of Torres, and then to rub salt in the wounds he offered him a new contract!

thats right, then he had the bare faced cheek and do whats right for the player and let him leave to get first team football, even though he could have kept him which would have been in the best interests of Liverpool.

[red g]

Ah, I don't agree with that either, I just think there's a couple of squads (Mancs, Chelsea) who have spent a considerable amount more on players than we have and hence have greater strength in depth. Your example just shows to me that they have more utility players than we have and that's a valid criticism of Rafa IMO.


I know we're not third at the moment so people will feel justified in fiercely criticising the manager but that's where I think we'll end up in May.

we do have a few utility players......Babel, dossena and Vrononin are crap in a few positions

[Vermilion]

Well I'll live with that. You'll be telling me next he treated Peter Crouch & Robbie Keane with great respect & dignity.

Well, Rafa was laughed at when he bought Crouch, not good enough for LFC they said, but we all know why he was bought, as did Crouchie, as a back up striker and an option, a plan b, who became a better player, became an england regular scoring lots of goals, why was there any need for Crouchie to stir the waters and demand to play just because HE then considered himself a starter.

No i think Rafa did ok by Crouchie.

Keane, ? Something wrong with that move from the off, i do think he was a pawn in a behind the scenes battle, which was wrong, but Rafa will only think of LFC at times like that, and what HE considers best, which is really what he's paid to do, saying that Keane looks like he may have to leave Spurs soon enough if he want's regular football, it's just how it is, ruthless.

Ok, i tried.

[Chrono]

Ah, I don't agree with that either, I just think there's a couple of squads (Mancs, Chelsea) who have spent a considerable amount more on players than we have and hence have greater strength in depth. Your example just shows to me that they have more utility players than we have and that's a valid criticism of Rafa IMO.

I know we're not third at the moment so people will feel justified in fiercely criticising the manager but that's where I think we'll end up in May.

Fábio
Rafael
John O'Shea
Jonny Evans
Darren Fletcher
Park Ji-Sung

These players didn't cost a fortune and perform at a much higher level than players in our squad that I would rate as better. Such as:

Lucas (aside from having a few good games recently)
Babel
Riera
Voronin
Dossena
Degen

Also, finishing 3rd come May is a failure. We are out of the CL already and are looking to scrape a European spot for next year when we have the best midfielder and striker (and arugably keeper) on the planet. Man U lost their real superstar and still perform as well as they did.

[BobTheCharmer]

what did he do wrong to crouchy???

nothing at all.

Apart from leaving him on the bench despite scoring in previous games. He'd score do well and still not get a game. Some people have short memories.

Why did he not start the CL final?

Rafa seemed to prefer it before he became a star. When he starting scoring for England the press & fans demanded he played and yet he was cast aside more often than not. Rafa's man management of players is his biggest failure for me.

[BFG]

Fábio
Rafael
John O'Shea
Jonny Evans
Darren Fletcher
Park Ji-Sung

These players didn't cost a fortune and perform at a much higher level than players in our squad that I would rate as better. Such as:

Lucas (aside from having a few good games recently)
Babel
Riera
Voronin
Dossena
Degen

Also, finishing 3rd come May is a failure. We are out of the CL already and are looking to scrape a European spot for next year when we have the best midfielder and striker (and arugably keeper) on the planet. Man U lost their real superstar and still perform as well as they did.

They might perform better at the moment because we've been struggling and a lot of our leaders haven't been on the pitch to help them out. Over the course of the season I think it'll even up and I think we got more out of our fringe players last season than the Mancs did. Ronaldo and Rooney dragged them over the line last term.

I don't consider 3rd to be a failure either. I'd say it's a position we should be fairly content with as our spending doesn't support higher expectations IMO.

[Spionkop69]

my personal opinion is that rafa is playing games with the board.

He knows the squad is better than our results suggest but he wants to prove a point to the owners that their lack of investment has caused us to fall behind the other big three and the chasing pack.

In reality, the loss of torres and gerrard cannot be underestimated but rafa has also biased his tactics and team formation to prove this point.

At the start of the season (after alonso left) he should have moved gerrard to the middle with masher so that we could get our play moving forward as neither lucas nor masher can do that. (at least until aquilani was fit)

But guess what rafa already knew that we wouldnt be able to get moving and kept with lucas - masher partnership. Gerrard was getting completely lost in midfield and was ineffective.

When torres was injured why did he persist with one up front knowing full well that neither ngog or kuyt can perform that role. The ball gets punted up front, their centre halves invariably win most headers and then we are under pressure again.

We have played awfully this season and people can bleat on about our injuries but torres and gerrard missed 20 odd games between them last season and we still finished second.

Why when we were desperately crying out for some creativity or a spark in the final minutes against blackburn did he not bring on aquilani. The bollocks about him not being fit is rubbish as he's played both gerrard and torres when they havent been fully fit before. There was no excuse not to give aquilani the last 20 mins against blackburn - so that we could try and win the three points.

My point is that rafa can turn it on when he wants and can turn it off when he wants. He is playing games and for that reason im annoyed with him.

Can you clarify this because I don't want to dance on your grave if I've interpreted this wrong.

You are saying that our poor run of form is because Benitez is trying to prove a point to our board about a lack of funds? Simple yes or no is sufficient.

*puts on dancing shoes*

[elrichio86]

genuinely world class players have spurs or man city got (spurs - defoe, king, lennon at a push) - man city (adebayor, bellamy, barry)

[red g]

nothing at all.

Apart from leaving him on the bench despite scoring in previous games. He'd score do well and still not get a game. Some people have short memories.

Why did he not start the CL final?

Rafa seemed to prefer it before he became a star. When he starting scoring for England the press & fans demanded he played and yet he was cast aside more often than not. Rafa's man management of players is his biggest failure for me.

HAsnt done fergie too bad over the years for kicking players who got to big for there boots

rvn
stam
beckham

maybe crouchie was gettting ideas above his station and lets face it....who wouldnt when they were ****ing abi.........

[BobTheCharmer]

HAsnt done fergie too bad over the years for kicking players who got to big for there boots

rvn
stam
beckham

maybe crouchie was gettting ideas above his station and lets face it....who wouldnt when they were ****ing abi.........

Whenever I've heard or read anything from Crouch he has never ever come across that way.

[red g]

[QUOTE=Chrono;1474351]Fábio
Rafael
John O'Shea been there 10 seasons
Jonny Evans
Darren Fletcher been there 8 seasons!!!!
Park Ji-Sung been there 5 seasons

These players didn't cost a fortune and perform at a much higher level ( Because they have been at scum a lot longer!!!!) than players in our squad that I would rate as better. Such as:

Lucas (aside from having a few good games recently)
Babel
Riera
Voronin
Dossena
Degen

all of who have been at the club 2 seasons max.....a bit of an unfair comparison?

surely we should be comparing our lot with

Anderson
Nani
Hargreaves
Fabio

all of a sudded it doesnt look that bad

[red g]

Whenever I've heard or read anything from Crouch he has never ever come across that way.

good pr

actually that does the bloke a disservice went to a house party and he was there and is a top fella.....although not the most professionall

[Spionkop69]

How many genuinely world class players have spurs or man city got (spurs - defoe, king, lennon at a push) - man city (adebayor, bellamy, barry)

we've got gerrard, torres, masherano, reina, johnson and carragher who are all genuinely world class players.

We should be doing better and yes unfortunately my opinion of rafa isnt the highest.

So you're arguing that we have more WC players than these teams but the names on the list are astounding!

I know the definition of World Class is completely subjective, but the names in those lists are pushing anyone's boundaries of what is "world class". I'll deal with them one by one:

Defoe - proven at club level but international and consistently? NO
King - same as above and add injury prone! NO
Lennon - WTF? At a push? **** me not even with a whacking great shove in the back! What has he done ever to justify this tag? Run fast? Great! Emphatic NO!

Adebayor - possibly. He's a bit of an enigma but on his day yes he's unplayable so I'll give you the benefit on that one - PROBABLY
Bellamy - I love Craig but world class? Really? Honestly? NO ****ING WAY!
Barry - He's not even first choice for his country! NO

You ignored Robinho? Hell, Stephen Ireland on recent form is better than two of the players you mentioned!

Torres - Yes, one of the world's top 3 strikers
Gerrard - Yes, one of the world's top 3 midfielders if not players
Reina - Yes, one of the top 3 keepers
Mascherano - Yes - the best DM in the business for me.
Carragher - No
Johnson - No

So to answer your own question, hopefully slightly more objectivity the answer is we have 4 players to those clubs 1 in total.

Yes, we have more world class players than them but the top 2 have been in and out of the side with injuries since the end of last season.

You argument is flawed because of your definition of world class. Yes, we do have more quality in our first team than either Spurs or Man City. Should we be doing better? Of course we should. Is the season over yet? Not by a long chalk and seeing as Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea have all lost 3 games or more so far this tells me this will be a closer race than previous years.

Runs of poor form tend to polarise the debate but the we've got more world class players than them argument is better raised when the whole season is judged. IMHO anyway.

[el matador]

Can you clarify this because I don't want to dance on your grave if I've interpreted this wrong.

You are saying that our poor run of form is because Benitez is trying to prove a point to our board about a lack of funds? Simple yes or no is sufficient.

*puts on dancing shoes*

yes