Rafa's 4-5-1

[Tatterdemalion]

Rafa's philosophy of playing 2 holding midfielders and one striker has become predictable , boring and the worst of all a losing formula.

Imo only Mourinho succeeded in the Premiership with 4-5-1 because he had 10 players who could score, from no. 2 to no.11.

Rafa's Liverpool scoring ability depends only on Torres, Gerrard, sometimes Kuyt, perhaps Johnson or Agger?... who else?

But the other players' scoring record is atrocious!

So how and why on earth is Rafa being paid if he is not seeing the obvious?

To put salt on the injury he treats the likes of Pompey as if he is playing Real Madrid so, he plays a Dossena as left wing instead of babel, Riera or Benay.

Six years has passed now and things are getting worse! Pressure has doubled on the players and on him while us are being treated as 'intelligent who know that things has progressed'.

I read the same thing the other day, exactly word for word.

Why copy and paste an article into here and make out like its your own?

Especially when it's ****

[shankly]

The biggest problem with the current squad is lack of confidence resulting in us not passing the ball out of defence, but mindlessly hoofing it up the field, more often to an opposing player and not one of our midfielders, wingers, strikers, thus heaping more pressure on themselves.

It also means that the midfielders have little time/composure/confidence (call it what you will) on the ball to make the defence splitting pass that is require to get the forwards in on goal.

Losing a player (as good as he may have been, or not) such as Alonso should not have made the team play as bad as they currently are, this is running deeper than just losing Alonso imo.

Shankly

[reds123]

I read the same thing the other day, exactly word for word.

Why copy and paste an article into here and make out like its your own?

Especially when it's ****

From where did you see the article ?

and the fact that you don't agree doesn' t mean that it is ****.

**** is the football we're playing and the type of football which you like since you are in your puberty and don't remember the attacking football we used to play 20 years ago.

and even if it is copy and paste i didn't tax you if i did so!

[FatTony]

Alonso provided just 3 assists out of 77 league goals, so where did all the "defence splitting" passes go to?? If they went to Gerrard with their "telepathic understanding" it certainly didn't result in more goals or wins. He rarely crossed the half-way line and contributed next to nothing in the attacking third of the pitch. These are facts, not some misty-eyed opinion

I don't agree with any of that at all. Firstly, these passes that Alonso would and did spray about were not necessarily the specific assists leading to goals, but were more often than not intelligent balls played into the right area at the right time. Whether it was to Gerrard, Benny, Torres whoever, it split defenses and put them under immense pressure.It didn't result in more goals then did it? Are you sure? Last season with Alonso having his best with us, we scored more goals than any other team in the EPL....not exactly a misty-eyed opinion is it.

Plenty of journalists spoke of the great understanding between Alonso and Gerrard, and so too did Gerrard himself. I'd stake my house on him never saying anything of the sort about Lucas and Mascher. Still, if you think Alonso added nothing to the team, had no great understanding with Gerarrd then you're entitled to your opinion, I think is insanely inaccurate though.

[FatTony]

Alonso provided just 3 assists out of 77 league goals, so where did all the "defence splitting" passes go to?? If they went to Gerrard with their "telepathic understanding" it certainly didn't result in more goals or wins. He rarely crossed the half-way line and contributed next to nothing in the attacking third of the pitch. These are facts, not some misty-eyed opinion

I don't agree with any of that at all. Firstly, these passes that Alonos would and did spray about were not necessarily the specific assists leading to goals, but were more often than not intelligent balls played into the right area at the right time. Whether it was to Gerrard, Benny, Torres whoever, it split defenses and put them under immense pressure.It didn't result in more goals then did it? Are you sure? Last season with Alonso having his best with us, we scored more goals than any other team in the EPL....not exactly a misty-eyed opinion is it.

Plenty of journalists spoke of the great understanding between Alonso and Gerrard, and so too did Gerrard himself. I'd stake my house on him never saying anything of the sort about Lucas and Mascher. Still, if you think Alonso added nothing to the team, had no great understanding with Gerarrd then you're entitled to your opinion, I think is insanely inaccurate though.

[the rev leeroy brown]

I don't agree with any of that at all. Firstly, these passes that Alonos would and did spray about were not necessarily the specific assists leading to goals, but were more often than not intelligent balls played into the right area at the right time. Whether it was to Gerrard, Benny, Torres whoever, it split defenses and put them under immense pressure.It didn't result in more goals then did it? Are you sure? Last season with Alonso having his best with us, we scored more goals than any other team in the EPL....not exactly a misty-eyed opinion is it.

Plenty of journalists spoke of the great understanding between Alonso and Gerrard, and so too did Gerrard himself. I'd stake my house on him never saying anything of the sort about Lucas and Mascher. Still, if you think Alonso added nothing to the team, had no great understanding with Gerarrd then you're entitled to your opinion, I think is insanely inaccurate though.

spot on post.

[BrianF80]

Please pay attention. Any Liverpool fan will know that we don't play 4-5-1 but play 4-2-3-1, an entirely different formation with entirely different dynamics

Some would say we've been playing 4411 most of the season.

[el matador]

i dont think the 4231 can ever win the premiership because its basically a counter attacking system.

Torres is finding it harder and harder this year and the tough battles that he has to fight virtually every game will in the end take its toll on his body.

I dont like 1 upfront and we dont have the personnel to play the 4231. We have no pace on either flank, the two holding midfielders arent cultured enough in posession and cant find a single decent forward pass.

In the pompey game, lucas had plenty of time on the ball, he looked up played it into gerrards feet whilst he had a couple of defenders around him. What the tits in hell can do with a pass like that ? We lost possession and no wonder stevie looks pissed.

Against Pompey, we had basically 9 defensive players and only two out and out attacking players (gerrard and torres). I dont count kuyt as an attacking player because he's basically a defender who plays on the right.

Dossena is a left back so his natural game is based on defence. We went to the bottom of the table team with 2 regular goal scorers and a team full of defensive players, not one of which could actually create something. One of our most creative players was left on the bench.

Rafa should have changed it to a 442 or a diamond 41212. Whereby, when our players do eventually get crosses into the box there might be some ****er on the end of them. Gerrard wont get into the penalty box and prefers hanging outside which leaves torres on his own against a couple of central defenders and possibly a defensive midfielder. What's the point of having full backs that push on if there isnt anyone to cross it to ?

Its just too defensive and it simply wont work. Teams have figured out how to play against it and its simple, you stop gerrard, you stop liverpool. Its time for a new set of tactics or at least plan B if the first one isnt working.

[reds123]

i dont think the 4231 can ever win the premiership because its basically a counter attacking system.

Torres is finding it harder and harder this year and the tough battles that he has to fight virtually every game will in the end take its toll on his body.

I dont like 1 upfront and we dont have the personnel to play the 4231. We have no pace on either flank, the two holding midfielders arent cultured enough in posession and cant find a single decent forward pass.

In the pompey game, lucas had plenty of time on the ball, he looked up played it into gerrards feet whilst he had a couple of defenders around him. What the tits in hell can do with a pass like that ? We lost possession and no wonder stevie looks pissed.

Against Pompey, we had basically 9 defensive players and only two out and out attacking players (gerrard and torres). I dont count kuyt as an attacking player because he's basically a defender who plays on the right.

Dossena is a left back so his natural game is based on defence. We went to the bottom of the table team with 2 regular goal scorers and a team full of defensive players, not one of which could actually create something. One of our most creative players was left on the bench.

Rafa should have changed it to a 442 or a diamond 41212. Whereby, when our players do eventually get crosses into the box there might be some ****er on the end of them. Gerrard wont get into the penalty box and prefers hanging outside which leaves torres on his own against a couple of central defenders and possibly a defensive midfielder. What's the point of having full backs that push on if there isnt anyone to cross it to ?

Its just too defensive and it simply wont work. Teams have figured out how to play against it and its simple, you stop gerrard, you stop liverpool. Its time for a new set of tactics or at least plan B if the first one isnt working.

spot on. that's what i tried to explain by saying that rafa plays 4-5-1, even though there is Kuyt, he plays as a wide midfielder. we play with only one striker which is childish! it seems that rafa never learns!

[javier_monsterano]

Are you calling rafa childish?

[reds123]

the tactic is childish especially when we play the likes of pompey! i used which not who.

[javier_monsterano]

Tactics are childish?

[dww]

Now that is an odd criticism.

[Roboklopp]

Interesting one this one. In a way it seemed we kind of happened on the old 4-2-3-1 thing at the time. If I remember correctly, we'd not really played it before & we didnt play it when Torres 1st arrived. Everyone was confused about where Xabi & Masher were going to play & who would be benched. It even seemed to some Xabi's days were numbered. Crouch & Torres were given time together up top but it wa quickly establised they didnt play well together (too quickly for me to be honest).

It suited the team best when we had the whole- Xabi, Masher & Stevie issue. (Stevie was still viewed by most as a CM then & people were getting in a strop about him playing sometimes on the right in Rafa's 2nd season).

Each was too good to drop & each had different strengths. Xabi wasnt mobile, but he provided such good passing that it made up for this & allowed people like Kuyt & laterly Riera to take up great positions- on top of feeding Stevie & Nando. It is unarguable that Stevie & Nando formed a world class partnership though.

We dont know how Aqualani will work out, but I suppose this is my biggest issue with Rafa at the mo. At least until he is fit, we dont have the personnel to play 4231 for reasons discussed above. I think in the interim he should be reverting to 442 with Kuyt helping Torres up top & Stevie & Masher in the middle & the Yoss out right.

It is odd that he seems unwilling to ditch the old 4231 in the short term when he was prepared to do so in the longer term last year (the whol barry/keane/alonso thing).

I do worry about the 451 suiting us long term- especially now cos Torres gets such a kicking in it too. Without fluidity of passing & movement the 4231 leaves Torres horribly isolated.

[dww]

I thought Rafa had been looking to play 4-2-3-1 from the start and the evolution to it was multi-staged particularly as early on in his PL time he found it hard to win away until he bought Crouch as a target man. To me it was always the way Rafa wanted to play but until the Xabi-Macherano-Gerrard triange hit it off he was never able to make it work.

To me he has now determined it can work and feels that last season showed he was right that it can be used to maximise players impact. The trouble is with the injuries we have had and the loss of Alonso we have been unable to get that core triangle to function or for the wide players to adapt to the different requirements of a Lucas-Mascher pairing at the base of it. I think Rafa saw Benayoun as a key player this season - adding play making capabilities t the three behind Torres - sadly though under pressure he hasn't delivered.