Liverpool v Stoke - Post match anguish thread

[Kenneth]

Mods: which one of you jokers has ressurected Craig's account and are having a laugh with it?

[Craig_H]

I completely agree with almost everything you've said except that I don't think it is the same team as last season with all the injuries we've had and as you've rightly said we've had very few options to cover.

It's not as simple as you say, firstly Rafa is hardly Mr Motivator is he? He's been saying for months now that it's just hard work and our luck will change, he needs to do something to try and change our luck.

Maybe it's taking the squad away to a different environment for a few days, changing the training program or giving a kid a chance to shine or change our luck

Their is a lot wrong with our performances and results I don't see how anyone can deny that. Stoke was better than Reading and Portsmouth for work rate but not much better in skill (and I mean basic skills not flash moves).

Whether that's purely down to confidence, a mediocre squad that cannot cover a blight of injuries or just damn bad luck I'm not sure and I'm not sure how to fix whatever it is that's wrong but I'm sure that we cannot just keep doing the same & Rafa and the squad (even the weaker members) are professional footballers and get paid a whole lot more than I do so I would like to hear them say something different in interviews and press conferences than I've been hearing for the past 3 months.

No team would cope well without their best three attacking threats. On top of that, no confidence and a run of bad results, and of course we're not going to be firing on all cylinders.

Rafa isnt Mr Motivator, but he's the same bloke who had them playing like world beaters last year. He says that we can just work hard because that's all we CAN do.

No offence intended, but your viewpoint seems to be a little naive, in that you're implying that he should just wave a magic wand. Sadly, there's no secret solution, it's just working hard and climbing our way out of the rut. There's no magic formula.

The training programme is the same as we had last year. Going away for a few days is an option, but it's not exactly a scientific potion or anything, it could just as easily have no positive effect.

I didnt deny that our performances and results have been mostly woeful. When i said there isnt much wrong, i meant in terms of personnel. Obviously when top players are out, the replacements arent as good, which is the same of every club but those same 'lesser' players were fantastic last season, so to me, they've proven they CAN do it. At the moment, they're not and again, i point to belief.

People keep saying, and the press keep bleating about us being a two man team and all that ****e, implying that the non-star players arent any good, but that's bollocks because if they werent any good, they wouldnt have produced what they did last season.

They're good, but they're not super-human to the point where they can withstand and rise above a completely zero level of confidence.

Our squad isnt mediocre by any means, but take out Rooney, Berbatov and...i cant even think of a third one for the mancs!...and you'll see them struggle. Last season Ronaldo carried them (as with the year before) and earlier this year, it was Rooney but looking further back, they're not amazing. And people say WE'RE a one/two man team. No more so than they are.

Take out Drogba, Anelka and Lampard from Chelsea - and see if they're as potent. They're not. Arguably, they'd still have more potency and threat than us. But then, £300m later, so they should. You wont see an F1 car produced on a touring car manufacturer's budget.

I dont know what you expect players or manager to say in press conferences. They're saying all they can say.

I think you're trying desperately to find a solution and through frustration, you're thinking "well there MUST be something!". The frustration resonates with me and i'm sure most of us. But unfortunately, there simply isnt some magical solution that Rafa's not been arsed to try. The only way out is to gradually rebuild the confidence, and that only comes through hard work, a bit of luck and some good results.

Mods: which one of you jokers has ressurected Craig's account and are having a laugh with it?

[Shaggy]

and didn't it happen twice?

Yeah Macheda did it twice for them.

Yeah he did it twice, the sickening late late goal against Villa and a complete fluke at Sunderland when Carrick's miscued shot hit his arse and it went in.

[Kenneth]

Listen mate, I've campaigned diligently for your return because the level if argument here was getting distinctly average. Now, you come back talking more sense and being more reasonable than than Dave. I feel cheated.

[topscorer]

No team would cope well without their best three attacking threats. On top of that, no confidence and a run of bad results, and of course we're not going to be firing on all cylinders.

Rafa isnt Mr Motivator, but he's the same bloke who had them playing like world beaters last year. He says that we can just work hard because that's all we CAN do.

No offence intended, but your viewpoint seems to be a little naive, in that you're implying that he should just wave a magic wand. Sadly, there's no secret solution, it's just working hard and climbing our way out of the rut. There's no magic formula.

The training programme is the same as we had last year. Going away for a few days is an option, but it's not exactly a scientific potion or anything, it could just as easily have no positive effect.

I didnt deny that our performances and results have been mostly woeful. When i said there isnt much wrong, i meant in terms of personnel. Obviously when top players are out, the replacements arent as good, which is the same of every club but those same 'lesser' players were fantastic last season, so to me, they've proven they CAN do it. At the moment, they're not and again, i point to belief.

People keep saying, and the press keep bleating about us being a two man team and all that ****e, implying that the non-star players arent any good, but that's bollocks because if they werent any good, they wouldnt have produced what they did last season.

They're good, but they're not super-human to the point where they can withstand and rise above a completely zero level of confidence.

Our squad isnt mediocre by any means, but take out Rooney, Berbatov and...i cant even think of a third one for the mancs!...and you'll see them struggle. Last season Ronaldo carried them (as with the year before) and earlier this year, it was Rooney but looking further back, they're not amazing. And people say WE'RE a one/two man team. No more so than they are.

Take out Drogba, Anelka and Lampard from Chelsea - and see if they're as potent. They're not. Arguably, they'd still have more potency and threat than us. But then, £300m later, so they should. You wont see an F1 car produced on a touring car manufacturer's budget.

I dont know what you expect players or manager to say in press conferences. They're saying all they can say.

I think you're trying desperately to find a solution and through frustration, you're thinking "well there MUST be something!". The frustration resonates with me and i'm sure most of us. But unfortunately, there simply isnt some magical solution that Rafa's not been arsed to try. The only way out is to gradually rebuild the confidence, and that only comes through hard work, a bit of luck and some good results.

Frustrated I am but I don't think it's fair to say I'm naive.

I could just slag off the Manager and all the players like a lot of other frustrated fans are on the forums but I'm having a rationale debate with you about what we need to do to turn around what we both agree have been woeful performances and a terrible season.

Basically your argument is to keep doing the same thing and wait for the players confidence to gradually return (or not) and hope that it turns quickly enough to secure 4th spot.

I'm saying that a 5 million pound a year proven Manager should maybe try something a little different because what we are doing now isn't working.

He's done it before, such as when he started playing Gerrard behind Torres in a change of strategy that had a huge impact on our season.

Other teams have had a huge list of injuries this season, look at Everton. They looked terrible but in the last few games they've turned it around. I don't know, was it just more of the same or a change in tactics, a new player thrown in immediately (like Donovan) or something else?

Arsenal lost all their strikers and Fabregas for periods of time this season.

It's been a crazy season in the sense that Chelsea have lost 3 already, the Mancs 5 and Arsenal 4 so we can still have a lot of hope that we can turn the season around but we HAVE to start getting results.

You think more of the same and the results will come and I think the Manager needs to try something different. I'll never be able to prove that my opinion is right because I'm not the Manager but I don't think my opinion is naive, it's just an opinion.

[Craig_H]

Listen mate, I've campaigned diligently for your return because the level if argument here was getting distinctly average. Now, you come back talking more sense and being more reasonable than than Dave. I feel cheated.

Your 'campaigning' did sod all though I was due back mid Jan and i came back mid Jan - not like you sped up the process

[Kenneth]

Yeah, but you're no Barry George. There wasn't much in the way of mitigating circumstances to be fair. Maybe I should have pushed the retard defense a bit harder

[Craig_H]

Frustrated I am but I don't think it's fair to say I'm naive.

I could just slag off the Manager and all the players like a lot of other frustrated fans are on the forums but I'm having a rationale debate with you about what we need to do to turn around what we both agree have been woeful performances and a terrible season.

Basically your argument is to keep doing the same thing and wait for the players confidence to gradually return (or not) and hope that it turns quickly enough to secure 4th spot.

I'm saying that a 5 million pound a year proven Manager should maybe try something a little different because what we are doing now isn't working.

He's done it before, such as when he started playing Gerrard behind Torres in a change of strategy that had a huge impact on our season.

Other teams have had a huge list of injuries this season, look at Everton. They looked terrible but in the last few games they've turned it around. I don't know, was it just more of the same or a change in tactics, a new player thrown in immediately (like Donovan) or something else?

Arsenal lost all their strikers and Fabregas for periods of time this season.

It's been a crazy season in the sense that Chelsea have lost 3 already, the Mancs 5 and Arsenal 4 so we can still have a lot of hope that we can turn the season around but we HAVE to start getting results.

You think more of the same and the results will come and I think the Manager needs to try something different. I'll never be able to prove that my opinion is right because I'm not the Manager but I don't think my opinion is naive, it's just an opinion.

I'm not saying you're wrong, and apologies for calling you naive, it wasnt meant to be an insult - but when you say something else, WHAT exactly is that something else?

That's kind of what i'm saying - i dont think there IS something else which just leaps off the page as a solution. If i thought there was, then of course i'd suggest it but many wiser football people than me have no doubt concluded that all you can do is keep plugging away and working yourself out of it.

I'm not saying do the same things as in keep playing ****e

I'm saying they need to work their arses off and battle their way out of the current situation.

We saw some grit and fight at Stoke on Saturday, and it was maybe 1 minute/a lick of paint away from getting us a win at (and dont fall into the trap of dismissing this) a very difficult place to go.

Perhaps Maxi will be something different and maybe he'll make a positive impact.

But i'm not sure there are many 'something different' options available. Aside from buying quality, which we cant afford, i'm at a loss for what that something different might be.

In terms of levels of performance - of course it has to be different - it has to be better.

How we get there though, aside from trying to restore belief and continuing to work hard, isnt something that easy to work out.

[Craig_H]

Yeah, but you're no Barry George. There wasn't much in the way of mitigating circumstances to be fair. Maybe I should have pushed the retard defense a bit harder

The mitigating circumstances were that i was trying to correct Marky of his wrongs. A kind of est-community service, if you will. And i got sent down for it

[Kenneth]

Fair does. No chance of compo though unfortunately. Good to see you back

[Craig_H]

No win, no fee they say. So i guess that means no fee

Cheers

[topscorer]

I'm not saying you're wrong, and apologies for calling you naive, it wasnt meant to be an insult - but when you say something else, WHAT exactly is that something else?

That's kind of what i'm saying - i dont think there IS something else which just leaps off the page as a solution. If i thought there was, then of course i'd suggest it but many wiser football people than me have no doubt concluded that all you can do is keep plugging away and working yourself out of it.

I'm not saying do the same things as in keep playing ****e

I'm saying they need to work their arses off and battle their way out of the current situation.

We saw some grit and fight at Stoke on Saturday, and it was maybe 1 minute/a lick of paint away from getting us a win at (and dont fall into the trap of dismissing this) a very difficult place to go.

Perhaps Maxi will be something different and maybe he'll make a positive impact.

But i'm not sure there are many 'something different' options available. Aside from buying quality, which we cant afford, i'm at a loss for what that something different might be.

In terms of levels of performance - of course it has to be different - it has to be better.

How we get there though, aside from trying to restore belief and continuing to work hard, isnt something that easy to work out.

I wish I knew the answers but as I say I'm not a 5 million pound a year Manager, I mentioned a couple of ideas as options but you shot them down with the opinion that more of the same is better than what I suggested.

In the end whatever you or I and anyone else think is the right thing to do we have to hope and pray that what Rafa DOES is the right thing to do.

I'm shot of confidence too and it's easy to blame the Manager but in the end it's his responsibility to turn things around, that's what he signed up for.

For as long as those with the power believe in him I can only keep supporting him and the team however frustrated I might be and whatever I think of strategy, tactics and team selection.

We are definitely paying for mistakes made in the summer, I hope it can be fixed and then we need to regroup this summer.

It's tempting to say get rid of Rafa, I may have even voted for it in the heat of an angry moment (I don't remember) but waiting 24 hours to think about it and debating the issues with you has made one thing clear in my mind.

It would be a travesty to have him ousted in the manner than Megson was at Bolton. I hate people that just keep saying 'keep the faith' and 'in Rafa we trust' on the forums, they drive me to despair that they don't belief in debating and talking about our team and Manager on a supporters forum and, like Rafa says, talking about 'options'.

I'm glad they didn't come on here and start accusing me of being an anti Rafa thug, being reactionary or hurling the kind of abuse they have at others that have questioned his decisions and I appreciate the conversation with you even if we don't agree on the best way forward in the end I know we are both reds that agree performances have to improve at all levels of the club.

See you around

[Craig_H]

I wasnt meaning to shoot you down in flames mate, i just didnt see any clearly obvious solution that would transform our fortunes.

[kubrickscube]

Without Gerrard & Torres think there;s a strong argument for playing 4-4-2.
With Maxi and Riera back we have wingers and i think as Ngog as our only striker he needs someone up there with him (Kuyt/Aquilani) I would prefer kuyt and aquilani as the playmaker alongside Mascher but I doubt Rafa would be comfortable with such an attacking line up.

Reina
Carra Kyriakos, Agger, Aurelio
Maxi, Mash, Aqua, Riera
Kuyt, Ngog

[topscorer]

Not offended in the slightest, it would have been a boring conversation if you'd just agreed with me.

My original post was that I didn't agree with Rafa using the analogy of benching the referee when he makes a mistake but Rafa doesn't do it with our players.

You then, correctly, argued that he doesn't have many options to replace them with.

Refereeing isn't exactly a profession many people aspire to so the Refereeing Association probably don't have many options in the squad either. Would you want the refereeing equivalent of Pacheco to manage our next game.

Blaming the ref just sounds weak and hollow to me, how ever many refereeing mistakes we've suffered this season I'm pretty sure we've suffered a lot more mistakes from our own players.

Rafa doesn't seem to have any more ideas than we do to turn it around, doing the same because it's the only option doesn't sound good to me. But I've said that too many times already and your right I don't have many alternative ideas and maybe they aren't good the ones I have. I hope Rafa comes up with something as he has proven he is capable of doing in the past.