Looking at long-term consistency...

[Exiled_red]

Sorry, wasn't directed at you.

Stats ? I don't do stats.

Do you work channel 5 then? They don't do stats either

[Vermilion]

Do you work channel 5 then? They don't do stats either

[RedReet]

Sorry, wasn't directed at you.

Stats ? I don't do stats, apparently though, it's said you can prove anything with stats, i wonder, can we prove we won the league last season with some.....no i thought not..

Ha ha, ok.

A lot of this thread seems to have passed over my head. I'll need to read back over it sober some day.

[Craig_H]

Again!

Craig said in reply to my post about us matching our rivals goal scoring stats, that the reason our goal count is as good or near as, is because we tend to score lots against the smaller sides....but..

What we score against lesser sides, in relation to our goal tally being as good as our rivals, only matters if our rivals did'nt do the same, which i suspect they do.

It doesn't matter what the hell we score against minnows, because the Chavs and Scum etc will be doing the same.

Not so sure mate, did they score 6's, 5's or 4's against the like of Hull, Burnley and Stoke etc?

[Craig_H]

I picked the games that automatically sprung to mind. It doesn’t matter what our ‘average’ was against these teams. You said "Where we've scored a high number of goals in a season, i think there's been a case of games against fodder, who we've netted 4 or 5 against.’’. So considering that only really includes last season, and maybe the one before, I just looked at last season and these were the matches that we scored the most goals in (excluding Newcastle), and none of these teams are ‘fodder’ as you described.

I didn’t realise you were talking exclusively about the league. So the teams we scored 3 or more against were…

Spurs (8th)
West Ham (9th)
Newcastle (18th)
Hull (17th)
Blackburn (15th)
Portsmouth (14th)
Wigan (11th)
City (10th)

So the only teams we didn’t score 3 or more against who finished in the top 11 are Chelsea, Everton and Fulham, only 3 out of the top 10 teams.

Firstly, i was referring to the really big scores - 4 and upwards. So teams like Hull, Burnley, Stoke, Derby going back a year or two, etc.

Secondly, on that list, there's a good few sides who i'd consider to be 'fodder', i wasnt necessarily meaning relegation type sides, but 18th, 17th 15th and 14th placed sides are certainly fodder IMO.

[RedReet]

But they were seasons when we didn't score that many goals overall. You said you were referring to high scoring seasons, and none was higher than last year.

[Craig_H]

But they were seasons when we didn't score that many goals overall. You said you were referring to high scoring seasons, and none was higher than last year.

Last year wasnt really the norm though, it was an extreme case example.

If that becomes the norm, then it's a fair example to use.

[RedReet]

But was this whole thread not started talking about from 08/09 onwards, and you went on to mention our high scoring seasons? What season(s) exactly were you on about?

[Craig_H]

But was this whole thread not started talking about from 08/09 onwards, and you went on to mention our high scoring seasons? What season(s) exactly were you on about?

I'm just talking generally. The main point was that, there was a question over, if we score more than most or all other teams in a given season, this indicates that we're very attacking and not 'cautious' or defensive, so why then is our points tally still inferior?

And my answer to that was that i think that while we have indeed had some seasons where we score heavily, a lot of the times, we'll have banged in 4's, 5's or 6's in one game, usually against a Hull or a Derby (as opposed to the top sides) and that whilst this is good, a more even distribution of the goals would help us amass more points.

For example, instead of beating Derby 6-0 and losing 1-0 away at Chelsea, we'd obviously have been better off if we'd managed to score 2 of those goals vs Derby in the Chelsea game.

Just an example, but obviously the total amount of goals scored wouldnt change, but the total points tally would, in our favour.

[RedReet]

So generally, we score more against the **** teams, and less against the good teams? I suppose I can’t argue with that.


I also think this cautious, defensive, negative card, is one used too often. You yourself keep going back to this point that Rafa only really lets the team attack towards the season because he has no choice. You completely ignore the fact that the players themselves are playing under less pressure, that Rafa prides himself on his fitness regime that pays dividends towards the end of the season, and other factors such as players returning from injury. We’ve proved time and time again that we can beat any team on our day, that we can play good football, and as last year proved, we can score plenty against top sides. We changed to this 4231 formation just after Christmas two years ago and were blowing teams away. Last year we got a few draws, Andy Gray questions why we use two “defensive midfielders”, and suddenly we’re playing a defensive formation despite all the previous results. I know you’ll say it’s not just the formation, it’s the mentality, but surely the players are just as much to blame, if not more, than Rafa? Torres is crucial to this formation we play, it surely can’t be no surprise that we struggle without him.

I have a lot more to add to this, but unfortunately it’s bar time. I’ll maybe finish on Monday or something.

[Vermilion]

Not so sure mate, did they score 6's, 5's or 4's against the like of Hull, Burnley and Stoke etc?

We were not talking this season alone...

Originally Posted by Craig_H
Where we've scored a high number of goals in a season, i think there's been a case of games against fodder, who we've netted 4 or 5 against.

Do you honestly think we score loads against the lower sides and utd, chelsea, arsenal don't, our problem is not that we don't score goals under this manger, we do, we score as much as anyone.

And it seems people are prepared to take this season as an example of the norm, yet say last season was a one off.

[Craig_H]

We were not talking this season alone...



Do you honestly think we score loads against the lower sides and utd, chelsea, arsenal don't, our problem is not that we don't score goals under this manger, we do, we score as much as anyone.

And it seems people are prepared to take this season as an example of the norm, yet say last season was a one off.

No i'm not saying that.

All i was saying is that, even if we've scored a bucketload in a given season, what we'll probably find is that these goals wont necessarily be spread out too evenly, which obviously means we may not have as many points as you'd associate with being the league's highest scorers.

[lickedlollipop]

if we're talking about long-term, i think chelsea is ****ed up. does someone know if they have any promising youngster? i don't think so.

[dww]

They have Stoch, Borini, Mancienne, Di Santo and Kakuta (I think) all of which have been highly rated and a few of which are playing PL football on loan. They also nicked a bunch of young English players from Leeds a few years back who were supposed to be good and have a left back on loan at Reading and probably some others. I'm not sure that at this stage you can dismiss them from having good future players, or at least very saleable assets from the youth teams.

[lickedlollipop]

yes, but i think only mancienne is playing in PL. but probably that's no problem for them, since they have multimillionare owner.