Lucas and Mascherano

[Armchairkopite]

I was a bit tongue in cheek with that description, but Lucas has started in 25 league games, scored no goals and has made one assist the entire season. I'm not buying it that he has those abilities and big bad Rafa is preventing him from showcasing them. He's playing with, as people say, a world class defensive midfielder in Mascherano. There is no pressure on him to defend so much. Lucas hides from the ball, he doesn't want it and never showed the ability to demand it under pressure while wearing the Liverpool shirt, unless we're talking about friendlies or two games against Newcastle.

He just doesn't have the pace, the strength and the technical ability to perform an attacking role in the Premier League, so he's reduced to running around and pretending. That's not good enough.

Dont get me wrong mate, I see plenty of room for improvment in Lucas' game.
Yes he doesn't show for the ball enough and he also doesn't play enough forward passes but this season he has progressed while the rest of the team as regressed. When the confidence of players around him goes up |i think he will improve also.
Big bad Rafa bollox, Rafa does have us playing in safe manner that is restricting us at the moment and thats a fact.

Lucas is also 4 points clear at the mom standing this season, now tyou can argue until your blue in the face but the fact is that we have on our hands a player that is progressing and will continue to do so.

[Armchairkopite]

I'm not saying that they'd be better passers if they had better movement in front of them, we'd just find out if they have the ability to play that type of game. At the moment they are playing 'safe' sideways passes, so we don't know how good their passing really is.

Aquilian and Mascherano played aaist Unirea last week and I could see a big gap between the two centre backs at times but the movement just wasn't there, Ngog need to add more hunger to his game, he doesn't get in the behind defences enough for someone with his pace.

[JohnDoe]

I think lack of movement is missing the picture a bit. With the way we're shaped, even if the front four ran non-stop for 90 minutes, they still wouldn't get any kind of decent service from the back.

The most critical aspect in the initiation of an attack, in my opinion, is the formation of the first passing "triangle" when the deep lying midfielder drops near the centre backs and receives the ball to start things off. Alonso used to do it exceptionally well, and now the duty alternates between Lucas and Mascherano.

The problem is that they're not very good at it. Alonso could handle being pressured and moved the ball quite well, this has caused the opposition to drop deeper because his accurate passing could catch them off guard if they risked pushing their back four too far high up the pitch, especially when we have Gerrard and Torres on the pitch.

Now, if the opposition's line is pushed back, there is more space between their line of their defence and their midfield. Pressure on our back four and two central midfielders is absorbed and we don't resort to hoofing the ball. We can actually find a free man up front because the opposition is stretched.

What happens with Lucas and Mascherano, is that they are vulnerable to pressure. They can't handle it and teams know it. They press on them immediately when they get the ball and they don't have the ability to punish the other team for the risk being taken. When Torres isn't playing it's even worse because we have no pace, so teams feel free to push even higher up the pitch, and our front four can't find any space to move into. Their movement is irrelevant, because even if they get the ball, they're surrounded by players, our defenders are sat deep, Lucas and Masch are barely on the halfway line, and there is no one to help them. Nine times out of ten, they lose the ball.

Now this doesn't mean Alonso is the only player in the world capable of keeping possession under pressure, every central midfield needs to be able to do it. Ballack and Lampard do it. Fletcher and Carrick do it. Lucas and Mascherano can't do it, which is why, in my opinion, they are both limited players on their own and form a terrible central midfield as a pair. They can't soak up pressure and move the ball forward consistently. It's sideways, sideways, backwards, hoof. Or it's sideways, sideways, forward pass attempt, attempt of holding up the ball, lost possession.

[Armchairkopite]

I think lack of movement is missing the picture a bit. With the way we're shaped, even if the front four ran non-stop for 90 minutes, they still wouldn't get any kind of decent service from the back.

The most critical aspect in the initiation of an attack, in my opinion, is the formation of the first passing "triangle" when the deep lying midfielder drops near the centre backs and receives the ball to start things off. Alonso used to do it exceptionally well, and now the duty alternates between Lucas and Mascherano.

The problem is that they're not very good at it. Alonso could handle being pressured and moved the ball quite well, this has caused the opposition to drop deeper because his accurate passing could catch them off guard if they risked pushing their back four too far high up the pitch, especially when we have Gerrard and Torres on the pitch.

Now, if the opposition's line is pushed back, there is more space between their line of their defence and their midfield. Pressure on our back four and two central midfielders is absorbed and we don't resort to hoofing the ball. We can actually find a free man up front because the opposition is stretched.

What happens with Lucas and Mascherano, is that they are vulnerable to pressure. They can't handle it and teams know it. They press on them immediately when they get the ball and they don't have the ability to punish the other team for the risk being taken. When Torres isn't playing it's even worse because we have no pace, so teams feel free to push even higher up the pitch, and our front four can't find any space to move into. Their movement is irrelevant, because even if they get the ball, they're surrounded by players, our defenders are sat deep, Lucas and Masch are barely on the halfway line, and there is no one to help them. Nine times out of ten, they lose the ball.

Now this doesn't mean Alonso is the only player in the world capable of keeping possession under pressure, every central midfield needs to be able to do it. Ballack and Lampard do it. Fletcher and Carrick do it. Lucas and Mascherano can't do it, which is why, in my opinion, they are both limited players on their own and form a terrible central midfield as a pair. They can't soak up pressure and move the ball forward consistently. It's sideways, sideways, backwards, hoof. Or it's sideways, sideways, forward pass attempt, attempt of holding up the ball, lost possession.

First off, i commend your post, fair dues there is certainly part of the problem in there. Quite simply i think Alonso picked up better positions and already knew where he was going to put the ball, Lucas in particular needs to man up and start demanding the ball more because as i said before i think he is very good on the ball under pressure its just all to often he layes the ball off and doesn't pick up a good position to recieve it back in.

When i went to Anfield last week for the first time this season i could see how stagnant our movement was. Riera was total rubbish but there where times when there was no one for him to pass it to to be fair.

Also as i keep on saying there was obvious space beteween their centre back but Ngog wasn't making the runs need to exploit the holes. Kuyt did well at times but it was all to laboured from Liverpool. Slow build up play and devoid of movement.

Lucas wasn't playing.

[JohnDoe]

First off, i commend your post, fair dues there is certainly part of the problem in there. Quite simply i think Alonso picked up better positions and already knew where he was going to put the ball, Lucas in particular needs to man up and start demanding the ball more because as i said before i think he is very good on the ball under pressure its just all to often he layes the ball off and doesn't pick up a good position to recieve it back in.

When i went to Anfield last week for the first time this season i could see how stagnant our movement was. Riera was total rubbish but there where times when there was no one for him to pass it to to be fair.

Also as i keep on saying there was obvious space beteween their centre back but Ngog wasn't making the runs need to exploit the holes. Kuyt did well at times but it was all to laboured from Liverpool. Slow build up play and devoid of movement.

Lucas wasn't playing.

I don't disagree. There is obviously a problem up front as well. Torres, Gerrard and Benayoun aside, we lack players with the ability and intelligence to hurt teams. We definitely need to address that, but in my opinion we need to address central midfield as well. Urgently.

Your opinion that, should we address the front four then Lucas and Masch will look better in their distribution, is fair enough. It will definitely help our results, but not for those reasons IMO, but merely because we'll have more match winners on the pitch, so we'll be a more dangerous team. That doesn't mean however, that our distribution from the back will be any better, and we will still remain a side struggling when handed the initiative. To truly dominate a game, we need a central midfield that is superior in possession.

Let's not forget, that this side finished last season as the best in the league, judging by form. That was with the current crop of attacking players. Our biggest problem, is leadership and influence. We lost leaders (Alonso, Hyypia) who had calm heads and could organize us and we didn't replace them. This has hurt us more than anything, and it's felt in our passing and possession game.

[Armchairkopite]

I don't disagree. There is obviously a problem up front as well. Torres, Gerrard and Benayoun aside, we lack players with the ability and intelligence to hurt teams. We definitely need to address that, but in my opinion we need to address central midfield as well. Urgently.

Your opinion that, should we address the front four then Lucas and Masch will look better in their distribution, is fair enough. It will definitely help our results, but not for those reasons IMO, but merely because we'll have more match winners on the pitch, so we'll be a more dangerous team. That doesn't mean however, that our distribution from the back will be any better, and we will still remain a side struggling when handed the initiative. To truly dominate a game, we need a central midfield that is superior in possession.

Let's not forget, that this side finished last season as the best in the league, judging by form. That was with the current crop of attacking players. Our biggest problem, is leadership and influence. We lost leaders (Alonso, Hyypia) who had calm heads and could organize us and we didn't replace them. This has hurt us more than anything, and it's felt in our passing and possession game.

Absolutely mate, its been noticeable since preseason and Rafa should have addressed the issue quicker imo.
Letting Sami and Alonso go at the same time was a massive mistake.
In an ideal World I think your probably on the money, Mascherano is too limited and Lucas isn't ready to control the game from the middle. Personally i would keep lucas is there and drop Gerrard in beside him and pay Aquiliani or Benni off torres.

There are a few things still not right and we are **** to watch but at least we are defending properly now and Skrtle and Agger are looking quite promising at the back.

Its been along season this one and its taken alot out of the fans imo.

[JohnDoe]

I appreciate the conversation.

[Armchairkopite]

I appreciate the conversation.

[Redspin]

I was a bit tongue in cheek with that description, but Lucas has started in 25 league games, scored no goals and has made one assist the entire season. I'm not buying it that he has those abilities and big bad Rafa is preventing him from showcasing them. He's playing with, as people say, a world class defensive midfielder in Mascherano. There is no pressure on him to defend so much. Lucas hides from the ball, he doesn't want it and never showed the ability to demand it under pressure while wearing the Liverpool shirt, unless we're talking about friendlies or two games against Newcastle.

He just doesn't have the pace, the strength and the technical ability to perform an attacking role in the Premier League, so he's reduced to running around and pretending. That's not good enough.

Lucas doesn't play in an attacking role. He's one of our two defensive midfielders along with Mascherano, so why single him out for criticism for his assists and goals? Mascherano also has just one assist and has yet to score (the Goodison deflection was an own goal). For what it's worth even the re-invented world superstar Alonso had just three assists all last season - just one more than Pepe Reina, that player of well-known attacking flair, achieved.

Lucas has been our best player more often than not this season and while mentioning un-named friendlies and two games against Newcastle when you deem he played well, you overlook may other examples, Man U away last year being the best example, when he was easily man-of-the match. Also Man U at home this season when he was exceptional and was head and shoulders above anyone else. Everton away last season when Gerrard was taken off for Lucas led us from giving the ball away constantly and having huge gaps in midfield, to taking the game by the scruff of the neck and winning thanks to his goal-bound shout being handled for a penalty. In his 20 minute cameo he was the best player on the pitch by miles.

I saw a phone-in on LFC TV a couple of weeks ago when a caller was berating Lucas as being the number one cause we'd lost or drawn whatever game it was. Another caller came on to give the opposite view and bemoaned the fact that the more feeble-minded of our fans just love a scapegoat and Lucas was the current one for the whingers to have a go at. A studio guest gave the usual guff in his rage at Liverpool fans being accused of being less than perfect. He spluttered something like "We're Liverpool FC. We always support the club and the team and we don't make scapegoats of our players".

**** me, I thought, this deluded fool has clearly yet to discover ext1892. He would be disabused of that naive notion in seconds flat

[JohnDoe]

Lucas doesn't play in an attacking role. He's one of our two defensive midfielders along with Mascherano, so why single him out for criticism for his assists and goals? Mascherano also has just one assist and has yet to score (the Goodison deflection was an own goal).

Actually if had you bothered to read the thread you'd have seen that I've criticized Mascherano just as much as I did Lucas.

For what it's worth even the re-invented world superstar Alonso had just three assists all last season - just one more than Pepe Reina, that player of well-known attacking flair, achieved.

I don't know where this is going. Are you suggesting that Alonso isn't a better player than Lucas by a very large margin and in almost every aspect of the game? People say Lucas has good attacking qualities, I pointed out to his stats. Alonso's qualities lie away from the oppositions' box, so stats won't show it. Simple.

Lucas has been our best player more often than not this season and while mentioning un-named friendlies and two games against Newcastle when you deem he played well, you overlook may other examples, Man U away last year being the best example, when he was easily man-of-the match. Also Man U at home this season when he was exceptional and was head and shoulders above anyone else.

Actually, I did mention Lucas' games against the mancs. Games in which we kept things tight and didn't have most of the possession, something that suits both Lucas and Mascherano (since they're better without the ball). That doesn't defeat my argument that they're crap when facing inferior sides and we need to play a possession dominated game, I'm talking about 30 league games every season.

Everton away last season when Gerrard was taken off for Lucas led us from giving the ball away constantly and having huge gaps in midfield, to taking the game by the scruff of the neck and winning thanks to his goal-bound shout being handled for a penalty. In his 20 minute cameo he was the best player on the pitch by miles.

20 minutes won't change my opinion of a player. An entire season might. I have seen nothing this season that suggests Lucas can be anything more than squad filler. I always expect him to play well in some games and be crap in others, and most of the time I'm right. The more we have the ball, the worse he looks. It's a simple equation that rarely if ever fails.

I saw a phone-in on LFC TV a couple of weeks ago when a caller was berating Lucas as being the number one cause we'd lost or drawn whatever game it was. Another caller came on to give the opposite view and bemoaned the fact that the more feeble-minded of our fans just love a scapegoat and Lucas was the current one for the whingers to have a go at. A studio guest gave the usual guff in his rage at Liverpool fans being accused of being less than perfect. He spluttered something like "We're Liverpool FC. We always support the club and the team and we don't make scapegoats of our players".

**** me, I thought, this deluded fool has clearly yet to discover ext1892. He would be disabused of that naive notion in seconds flat

This baffles me. How did I make Lucas a scapegoat here? In my opinion, he's not good enough. I've pointed out why I think so. There are also other players who are not good enough, but they're not the subject of the thread. The subject of this thread is Lucas and Mascherano.

[Kenneth]

But he is **** though. We established that a while ago.