Lille post-mortem

[Parr_Zee]

So the reason hes been **** for England as well is a **** manager, **** tactics and lack of quality also??

Ditto for Torres also??

No, he's sh!t for England because 90% of the time he is played out of position. Either from the left or as the deeper of the 2 CMs.

[ronanm]

How?

Eh, hello Mc Fly???

[Lecter]

I have actually. And yes it's frustrating, of course it is, but these are largely the same players who got us 86 points last season. And you always give your best no matter what. Gerrard isn't even doing that.



He is one of the problems, no escaping that, but the big picture reveals so many problems it's mind-boggling. He's accountable cos he's the manager but I will never blame him entirely for this mess. Never.

Thats my take on it also

[Craig_H]

Speak for yourself

Personally I always had more pride than that

Something isnt right with Torres its not just his form its him arguing the toss with every referee

Hes been like this on odd occasions in previous seasons when he hasnt got his own way (it was sod all to do with the manager then either)

Gerrard is an enigma to me at the minute everything is off, when I look at some players sulking they usually retain the skill its their desire that is affected. Gerrard everything is off hes looked lazy (even when results picked up) his passing and shooting is off

V stated earlier in this thread that he looks injured and I'd concur with that

I dont think we can hang everything on the manager sometimes players have to stand up and be counted

I agree that you cant hang everything on the manager. But the alternative is to **** every single player off, to other clubs. And we both know that never happens. So that leaves only one thing.

[-V-]

Speak for yourself

Personally I always had more pride than that

Something isnt right with Torres its not just his form its him arguing the toss with every referee

Hes been like this on odd occasions in previous seasons when he hasnt got his own way (it was sod all to do with the manager then either)

Gerrard is an enigma to me at the minute everything is off, when I look at some players sulking they usually retain the skill its their desire that is affected. Gerrard everything is off hes looked lazy (even when results picked up) his passing and shooting is off

V stated earlier in this thread that he looks injured and I'd concur with that

I dont think we can hang everything on the manager sometimes players have to stand up and be counted

When it comes to Gerrard its clearly a combination off things. He's certainly not sprinting these days so for me he must be needing that groin operation that he wanted earlier in the season. Plus he's clearly not interested in the manager anymore and he's not the only one.

Torres has no support so I don't blame him one little bit. You can't expect him to save us when he is surrounded by defenders, gerrards nowhere to be seen, Babel's been subbed again and Kuyt is still trying to get up the pitch.

Rafa should for the sake of his own health, just accept that its over. I find it hard to fathom how he still persists with 2 defensive midfielders when Torres is begging for some pacey players to get up and support him. Rafa is too stubborn and too 1 dimensional to turn this around now.

We need a change. Its over.

[Lecter]

No, he's sh!t for England because 90% of the time he is played out of position. Either from the left or as the deeper of the 2 CMs.

and Torres?

[el matador]

i was always under the impression, that gerrard's positions just behind the striker is the most important, as it's where the playmakers usually play, or at least a skilfull "second" striker. gerrard is neither. it worked fine while both him and torres were on top form but it looks dire atm.

still we could do with someone who can actaully play football anywhere on the pitch not just in midfield.

i just don't get why rafa doesn't try a different formation, maybe something more suited to the players we have, like a 433, or even a 3412. i remember when he just came to liverpool he constantly changed the formations, and players positions, but now it just seems like he's afraid to do it, and he sticks with something that clearly isn't working.

the playmakers tend to play a little deeper, look at xavi for barcelona, or alonso for real, pirlo for ac milan, cambiasso for inter.

The key thing is getting the balls to the players who can cause the most damage at the right times. If you cant then keep hold of possession until the opening is created.

Alonso was the master at this and since his departure lucas hasnt filled his boots and never will.

[Lecter]

I agree that you cant hang everything on the manager. But the alternative is to **** every single player off, to other clubs. And we both know that never happens. So that leaves only one thing.

Thats fair enough but dont hang your hat on Mourinho coming in

I fear you will be very disappointed

[johnly]

Just reading Rafa's post match comments. Same old, same old. "upset with result, pleased with the effort" I'm sorry, it's not good enough any more

[Craig_H]

Thats not good enough for me

You pull on the shirt and you should have the desire to want to wear it again

You cant even look at Gerrard or Torres and say they are playing for themselves because their basic skill levels arent even there

Agree with you again. But what if it's the reality, then what?

What do you do, do you stand there constantly repeated that it's not good enough, even though it's the reality (if we assume for one moment that it is), and knowing that shouting the odds against it isnt going to change the reality of it? Or do you have to change something, despite it not being 'fair' or an example of justice, because no matter how much you ram home that it's unacceptable, it still continues and shows little sign of stopping?

[kemm1]

I take it you are trying to say that he is defensive. How can a team that starts with Milner, Petrov, Young, Downing, Agbonlahor and Carew be negative?

What don't you like about getting the ball to fast, skillful players, beating people, getting crosses into the box and scoring goals?

I see defensive, long ball football and there's no point debating as it's obvious that we have a complete difference of opinion of ONeill but no probs.

[Parr_Zee]

and Torres?

I don't think Torres is sh!t for Spain.

[el matador]

I have actually. And yes it's frustrating, of course it is, but these are largely the same players who got us 86 points last season. And you always give your best no matter what. Gerrard isn't even doing that.



He is one of the problems, no escaping that, but the big picture reveals so many problems it's mind-boggling. He's accountable cos he's the manager but I will never blame him entirely for this mess. Never.

i think that rafa has lost the dressing room and that this fracture has caused the problems with gerrard.

I dont think gerrard and carra are with the manager and at the end of the season it will be interesting to see just how many points alonso was worth to us.

Probably 20 or so I think.

[kemm1]

Eh, hello Mc Fly???

So Rafa put the club in massive debt, was the cause for our academy not producing players for over 10 years, having a piss poor marketing strategy for years etc.?

On the pitch we are having a horrible season but we've had previous good to very good seasons plus he's improved the quality of the academy players.

So I ask again................how?

[Rich]

Alonso, but let's not forget Arbeloa who was generally very good for us - and is far superior defensively to both Insua and Johnson.