Lille post-mortem

[Craig_H]

Yes I think it's all finished now, Rafa ain't going to salvage anything from this utter shambles of a football team. I'd like Gerrard, Carra and a few others to close the door and go in his midst though, Gerrard being the first. His attitude sucked lately and as a team captain that is totally out of order.

I dont like Gerrard's attitude anymore than you do.

I do think, however, that rightly or wrongly, a new manager would bring fresh belief and impetus, which in turn, would see Gerrard's performances back to something like his best - and if he's wearing a Liverpool shirt, that can only benefit the club/team. There's no fan who doesnt want to see gerrard firing on all cylinders, and i genuinely believe that a new manager would help that to happen.

[Matt]

Oh joy, what another load of ****e. We can barely compete with half decent teams at the moment, let alone beat them and challenge for stuff. This is just not Liverpool.

These performances are a shadow of what's expected. A completely ineffective Kuyt again gets left on ahead of Babel, I mean seriously WTF? Substitutions are supposed to be game-changing, inspiring, consolidatory and most of ours are just plain weird.

So sick of this now.

[Kronenburg1892]

Long term, the owners have to go.

Short term, the playing/management side of things needs a new direction and some fresh ideas, so rafa needs to go. I dont like saying it, but the simple scenario now, is that all evidence says rafa can no longer make our team play to their capability, or anywhere near it.

I've said all along, if i knew it was only one season out of the CL, i'd grudgingly accept it, if it meant G&H ****ed off. I still feel that way.

I dont think the security of the club as a going concern is in doubt, because there'll always be willing buyers if RBS effectively repossess the club from under the yanks noses. I hope the £100m investment isnt found and i hope this ****s them up big time, to the point where they have no other option but to release the club.

My only fear with that, is they'll try to find the money in other ways, by selling people like Torres, Mascherano and Reina. The players could simply reject a move, but i dont want to be in the situation where we're relying on that.

So how does forcing Rafa out with his reported £25million pay off (have I got that right?), on top of no Champions League money, plus paying for a new manager and his staff to move in, balance next season's books? I'm guessing it can't. Unless you sell off players and cut the wage bill. Even so, what budget would a new manager have? **** all. And you think next season will be better?

[-V-]

Were all taking this £20m contract pay-off as if its a fact. For all we know there could be a clause that says if he fails in his job to get the team into the top 4 then they can sack him without a pay-off

[Craig_H]

So how does forcing Rafa out with his reported £25million pay off (have I got that right?), on top of no Champions League money, plus paying for a new manager and his staff to move in, balance next season's books? I'm guessing it can't. Unless you sell off players and cut the wage bill. Even so, what budget would a new manager have? **** all. And you think next season will be better?

Firstly, the rafa pay-off thing is a bit of a myth.

He's on £4m a season here. If he's sacked, we continue paying his salary until he gains new employment. Upon which point, if his new salary is under £4m per season, we pay the difference for what was left of his contract. If his new salary is higher, we pay nothing.

If Madrid come in and take him, we get compensation.

Secondly, if the £100m investment ISNT found, and if RBS DO force the club out of G&H's hands and into the hands of a new owner/buyer, then the issue of debt, balancing the books, budgets etc, would be completely dependent on the new owner and what they did with regards to the debt.

We cant speculate on that from this position now.

[Lecter]

That's all true, but the fact is, the players arent engaging in daily interaction with the owners.

This goes back again to what i said before mate - you seem keen to dismiss the Rafa impact and put it ALL on the owners. In this case, with regards to the motivational impact on the players.

Lets just say you faced redundancy/a pay cut at work

Would you work your ass off for your boss?

Listen I'm not completely dismissing Benitez's impact but I truley believe that much of our initial problem stems from the events in the summer

That was the demotivating factor imo, Rafa can only do so much (and what hes doing now clearly isnt working)

Maybe we could get a short term boost from a new manager but when it comes down to it we'll still have the lack of amibition from board level and we'll still be a company whose sole purpose is debt repayment / management rather

You mentioned in one of your earlier posts it being the same situation as Houllier's final season

Well to me Houllier had the luxury of not having to worry about paying off debts and equally the players knew exactly who to point the finger at

Now any number of people could point the finger at half a dozen people at our club

[Lecter]

Were all taking this £20m contract pay-off as if its a fact. For all we know there could be a clause that says if he fails in his job to get the team into the top 4 then they can sack him without a pay-off

Highly unlikely imo

[vlahka]

I'm confused. I recall getting slated last november when I said it would of been best if we had sold Gerrard to chelsea and Benitez possibly needed to be changed because his management of the team and play style wasnt going to work if we wanted to win the premier league.

The Houllier points are a great example. Benitez won the CL with pretty much the same team. That team was also playing horrid under Houllier near the end. They had no passion. Same thing is happening here. I wonder what would happen if the manager was changed like before. Would this team actually become good again? I'd really like to see that happen but I dont see Benitez leaving or Gerrard. And if we could replace Carragher I really really would like that. He might do some great things now and then but he's extremely hopeless in the air. And his long balls...really really need to go.

[Craig_H]

Lets just say you faced redundancy/a pay cut at work

Would you work your ass off for your boss?

Listen I'm not completely dismissing Benitez's impact but I truley believe that much of our initial problem stems from the events in the summer

That was the demotivating factor imo, Rafa can only do so much (and what hes doing now clearly isnt working)

Maybe we could get a short term boost from a new manager but when it comes down to it we'll still have the lack of amibition from board level and we'll still be a company whose sole purpose is debt repayment / management rather

You mentioned in one of your earlier posts it being the same situation as Houllier's final season

Well to me Houllier had the luxury of not having to worry about paying off debts and equally the players knew exactly who to point the finger at

Now any number of people could point the finger at half a dozen people at our club

I see no value in comparing the financial aspects of any normal job, with those of people employed at the higher end of top flight football. The scenarios just dont compare.

Liverpool players arent going to be 'made redundant' and even if they were, most of them would find another highly paid position elsewhere, they'd have no fears for the future of themselves or their families, financially speaking.

So there's really no debating value in asking me whether i'd work hard for my boss, if i thought i was going to be made redundant. It's not remotely in the same ballpark.

Re Houllier - i meant it was the same, from the point of view that, in footballing terms with regards to getting the team performing, his time ran out because he stopped being able to do it. Same thing with rafa now, i think.

In no way was Houllier having to deal with the stuff rafa is dealing with from upstairs now, i acknowledge that.

But the sum of all parts/outcome of it is more important than the reasons. Rafa, like GH, cant get the team playing to a high enough standard now IMO, so from that perspective, like GH, his time is now up.

[Shanks]

"He brought Dirky off with 3 mins to go! can you believe that"

"He also said, When you play away in these knockout competitions, you have to score when you have chances.

No **** Rafa"..

.

[ronanm]

Rafa post match:

"The attitude of the players was fantastic. We were talking about not letting the fans down in terms of team effort and I think we did this.
"Every game is important for us now. We have to be ready to play Portsmouth and try to win. Then we have to look to the Europa League game, that is how it is when you are a top side playing in different competitions."


Is this guy on glue?????

[Lecter]

Firstly, the rafa pay-off thing is a bit of a myth.

He's on £4m a season here. If he's sacked, we continue paying his salary until he gains new employment. Upon which point, if his new salary is under £4m per season, we pay the difference for what was left of his contract. If his new salary is higher, we pay nothing.

If Madrid come in and take him, we get compensation.

Secondly, if the £100m investment ISNT found, and if RBS DO force the club out of G&H's hands and into the hands of a new owner/buyer, then the issue of debt, balancing the books, budgets etc, would be completely dependent on the new owner and what they did with regards to the debt.

We cant speculate on that from this position now.

I woyldnt dismiss it completely as a myth

When players leave the club they normally get a contractual pay off irrespective of what they go on to earn elsewhere

I've no doubt a managerial contract would work in a similar way

There would certainly be some loyalty bonus or compensation payable in addition to the contractual pay off you have suggested

Managers and agents arent fools they know the pitfalls of the industry they are in and they will do everything in their power to have terms that are to their benefit in case of every eventuality

[Craig_H]

I woyldnt dismiss it completely as a myth

When players leave the club they normally get a contractual pay off irrespective of what they go on to earn elsewhere

I've no doubt a managerial contract would work in a similar way

There would certainly be some loyalty bonus or compensation payable in addition to the contractual pay off you have suggested

Managers and agents arent fools they know the pitfalls of the industry they are in and they will do everything in their power to have terms that are to their benefit in case of every eventuality

Not to dispute all that, but you either fall on one side of the line or the other and whilst we dont know, we can only guess - and my guess is that we wouldnt be paying anywhere near £20m if he was sacked.

G&H are cunts, but they're not stupid either and even just a year ago, they'd have known their vulnerable financial position and consequently, i find it hard to believe they'd have committed themselves to such a financial burden with a guy they'd allegedly sought to remove from his position in the not too distant past anyway.

[Lecter]

I see no value in comparing the financial aspects of any normal job, with those of people employed at the higher end of top flight football. The scenarios just dont compare.

Liverpool players arent going to be 'made redundant' and even if they were, most of them would find another highly paid position elsewhere, they'd have no fears for the future of themselves or their families, financially speaking.

So there's really no debating value in asking me whether i'd work hard for my boss, if i thought i was going to be made redundant. It's not remotely in the same ballpark.

Re Houllier - i meant it was the same, from the point of view that, in footballing terms with regards to getting the team performing, his time ran out because he stopped being able to do it. Same thing with rafa now, i think.

In no way was Houllier having to deal with the stuff rafa is dealing with from upstairs now, i acknowledge that.

But the sum of all parts/outcome of it is more important than the reasons. Rafa, like GH, cant get the team playing to a high enough standard now IMO, so from that perspective, like GH, his time is now up.

Tell that to Pepe Reina

As I mentioned previously he alluded to the lack of amibition from the owners affecting the players back in September

[Kronenburg1892]

Well last season, there was a pretty vocal support of Rafa through the fans which may have forced the issue with his five year contract too.