Lille post-mortem

[Guest]

Rafa post match:

"The attitude of the players was fantastic. We were talking about not letting the fans down in terms of team effort and I think we did this.
"Every game is important for us now. We have to be ready to play Portsmouth and try to win. Then we have to look to the Europa League game, that is how it is when you are a top side playing in different competitions."


Is this guy on glue?????

I don't think he believes in anything he said. There's still a second leg to be played there so he's possibly taking this into context.

[Matt]

Rafa post match:

"The attitude of the players was fantastic. We were talking about not letting the fans down in terms of team effort and I think we did this.
"Every game is important for us now. We have to be ready to play Portsmouth and try to win. Then we have to look to the Europa League game, that is how it is when you are a top side playing in different competitions."


Is this guy on glue?????

In fairness there was more effort than on Monday. It's a sad indictment of players' form generally that Riera has probably played himself back into the side on the back of 2 or 3 decent touches.

[Lecter]

Not to dispute all that, but you either fall on one side of the line or the other and whilst we dont know, we can only guess - and my guess is that we wouldnt be paying anywhere near £20m if he was sacked.

G&H are cunts, but they're not stupid either and even just a year ago, they'd have known their vulnerable financial position and consequently, i find it hard to believe they'd have committed themselves to such a financial burden with a guy they'd allegedly sought to remove from his position in the not too distant past anyway.

I dont think they are stupid, I just think they are too greedy / short sighted

I have said it previously in this thread I think they saw what Rafa did this last season and saw a meal ticket. A guy who could pull rabbits out of the hat at a minimum / zero outlay

So they really wanted him, in addition Rafa was "hot property" at that time so I think Rafa could have drove a hard bargain

[Craig_H]

Tell that to Pepe Reina

As I mentioned previously he alluded to the lack of amibition from the owners affecting the players back in September

Interestingly enough, your example of Reina is perhaps the worst one you could have, considering his performances have been consistently flawless

If the upstairs issues have been demotivating to the point of poor performances, then i'd argue that Reina himself hasnt been remotely affected.

I'm not one who would swiftly turn away from the notion that Pepe was saying what he said, primarily as Rafa's mouthpiece. Just my humble, of course

[red g]

I dont think they are stupid, I just think they are too greedy / short sighted

I have said it previously in this thread I think they saw what Rafa did this last season and saw a meal ticket. A guy who could pull rabbits out of the hat at a minimum / zero outlay

So they really wanted him, in addition Rafa was "hot property" at that time so I think Rafa could have drove a hard bargain

the americans knew **** all about raafa and completely agree with this....also if you knew **** all about football and read all about liverpool in the papers you would have believed that we were title challengers this year!

so hence why would the americans need to spend there yankee dollars if all seemed so rosy...and lets face it last summer it didnt.

to them it was a simple no and a couple of lies about a few million we were going to spend...to rafa it was the difference of being title challengers or also rans maybe that pissed him off, maybe that effected the team.....maybe thats why Stevie and Jamie are so pissed off as well....they bought the bull**** to.

[-V-]

Highly unlikely imo

Don't see why not? Im sure he's set targets and pay rises and pay cuts will be factored into his contract depending on performance. If the club lose alot of money because he fails to get the team into the champions league then it would make sense for them to be able to terminate his contract for either nothing or a much smaller settlement

[Craig_H]

Lec, i wanted to ask your view on something you said about the 'meal ticket' scenario - whereby they felt that rafa was an asset because he could keep the side competitive even on a tight budget. This indicates to me that the owners know how important it is for the club to remain competitive (eg, in the CL) and that this is crucial to both their plans ongoing, and in terms of the club's value, should they need to seek out partial investment, as they seem in desperate need to do.

With that in mind, having looked on this season and seen how much of a task it was looking, to requalify for the CL (not to mention the unexpected early elimination in the group phase, and the cost of that failure) why wouldnt the owners have made some kind of attempt to fund much needed strengthening in January?

I know they dont care about the club's performance from a glory point of view, but financially it's surely key to them both in terms of revenue generation (something they cannot possibly afford to be flexible on, in terms of just 'accepting' the loss of later-round CL monies) as well as in terms of the club's overall value, that we dine at football's top table.

If that is indeed something they are aware of, why do you think they didnt find funds to help achieve that? For their own agendas i mean, not for those of the fans or manager.

Short term spend for long term gain, kind of thing.

Interested in your view mate.

[vonk]

I'm confused. I recall getting slated last november when I said it would of been best if we had sold Gerrard to chelsea and Benitez possibly needed to be changed because his management of the team and play style wasnt going to work if we wanted to win the premier league.

The Houllier points are a great example. Benitez won the CL with pretty much the same team. That team was also playing horrid under Houllier near the end. They had no passion. Same thing is happening here. I wonder what would happen if the manager was changed like before. Would this team actually become good again? I'd really like to see that happen but I dont see Benitez leaving or Gerrard. And if we could replace Carragher I really really would like that. He might do some great things now and then but he's extremely hopeless in the air. And his long balls...really really need to go.

We had a horrible season after Houllier left. We won the CL but we finished 5th in the league. Rafa has been excellent in Europe until this season but **** in the league. Even last year we were out of it in February. There was that memorable run at the end when we put the scum under a little pressure and played great football, but apart from that our league form has been poor.

[Kronenburg1892]

Lec, i wanted to ask your view on something you said about the 'meal ticket' scenario - whereby they felt that rafa was an asset because he could keep the side competitive even on a tight budget. This indicates to me that the owners know how important it is for the club to remain competitive (eg, in the CL) and that this is crucial to both their plans ongoing, and in terms of the club's value, should they need to seek out partial investment, as they seem in desperate need to do.

With that in mind, having looked on this season and seen how much of a task it was looking, to requalify for the CL (not to mention the unexpected early elimination in the group phase, and the cost of that failure) why wouldnt the owners have made some kind of attempt to fund much needed strengthening in January?

I know they dont care about the club's performance from a glory point of view, but financially it's surely key to them both in terms of revenue generation (something they cannot possibly afford to be flexible on, in terms of just 'accepting' the loss of later-round CL monies) as well as in terms of the club's overall value, that we dine at football's top table.

If that is indeed something they are aware of, why do you think they didnt find funds to help achieve that? For their own agendas i mean, not for those of the fans or manager.

Short term spend for long term gain, kind of thing.

Interested in your view mate.

Well, if you don't mind, I'd suggest that Hicks and Gillete aren't in control of LFC's purse strings, and have absolutely **** all desire, or their own money to put into the club. Their whole business model is based on cheap loans and debt repayment. Purslow has already alluded to the fact that there is bugger all money in the coiffers, without the sale of players. So if he said that, then he also knew that the owners had bugger all to throw at the club. Simply put, cash flow.

[Craig_H]

Well, if you don't mind, I'd suggest that Hicks and Gillete aren't in control of LFC's purse strings, and have absolutely **** all of their own money to put into the club. Their whole business model is based on cheap loans and debt repayment. Purslow has already alluded to the fact that there is bugger all money in the coiffers, without the sale of a player. So if he said that, then he also knew that the owners had bugger all to throw at the club. Simply put, cash flow.

So you're suggesting they're completely ****ed in terms of cashflow AND in terms of the ability to find say £20m, even if it was borrowed?

What about the sales of some of their North American franchises?

Surely that would've either given them cold hard cash in their hands, or enabled them to reduce or wipe out other debts they may have had, thus enabling them to acquire further borrowings, if they chose to.

[Kronenburg1892]

Depends on how much they borrowed to buy those franchises in the first place. When you pay off a mortgage, you pay off the profit of lending first, then the actual worth of the loan, before you see any collateral.

[MrMichael]

Nietzsche observes that hope can "be the greatest evil, for it lengthens the ordeal of man."

Thank god I am no longer hopeful.

Been on a plane so missed the match. On the train from schiphol to amsterdam central and I am going to smoke a fat one at forget all about LFC for the weekend. Still plenty of cheap flights tomorrow if anyone fancies it.

Sooooooo tempted

[Lecter]

Lec, i wanted to ask your view on something you said about the 'meal ticket' scenario - whereby they felt that rafa was an asset because he could keep the side competitive even on a tight budget. This indicates to me that the owners know how important it is for the club to remain competitive (eg, in the CL) and that this is crucial to both their plans ongoing, and in terms of the club's value, should they need to seek out partial investment, as they seem in desperate need to do.

With that in mind, having looked on this season and seen how much of a task it was looking, to requalify for the CL (not to mention the unexpected early elimination in the group phase, and the cost of that failure) why wouldnt the owners have made some kind of attempt to fund much needed strengthening in January?

I know they dont care about the club's performance from a glory point of view, but financially it's surely key to them both in terms of revenue generation (something they cannot possibly afford to be flexible on, in terms of just 'accepting' the loss of later-round CL monies) as well as in terms of the club's overall value, that we dine at football's top table.

If that is indeed something they are aware of, why do you think they didnt find funds to help achieve that? For their own agendas i mean, not for those of the fans or manager.

Short term spend for long term gain, kind of thing.

Interested in your view mate.

In short I dont think they have the funds

I think at best their whole initial business plan sailed close to the wind

It was based on loaning more than the club was ever worth in terms of assets

It was based on building a stadium

It was based on consistantly qualifying for the Champions League

It was based on large initial "investment" in the transfer market followed by ever decreasing smaller investments until the academy started to work (this part I partially agree in)

They have been the victim of some circumstances though

The credit crunch has affected their ability to lend aganist the club and the banks have quickly moved to get their debt / worth ratios in line with something realistic (or at least it will be after the £100 million pay down this July)

Its also affected their ability to loan for the stadium but I think our initial debt would have caused difficulties on this anyway maybe not quite as severe but some

The financial problem has now got so bad its had to bring forward their reduced transfer investment policy

They have also been affected by the Man City factor which has thrown their transfer investment policy under further scrutiny and put £30 million a year revenue in jeopardy

Their other businesses are leveraged also. Gillett walked away with a little profit from his Candiens sale but theres rumours that went to pay of a short term hedge fund loan he used to pay down some of our debt last year. Hicks stands to gain very little from the sales of his baseball and hockey teams as they are so heavily leveraged

I think as things stood in the summer things were probably in equilibrium. Another season of Champions League football would have given another year of steadily turning over.

The RBS request to pay down the debt has thrown an almighty spanner in the works but so has our failure to secure 4th

Their whole plan has been a ticking time bomb imo, unfortunately it looks like Rafa cut the red wire instead of the blue one this season

[Lecter]

So you're suggesting they're completely ****ed in terms of cashflow AND in terms of the ability to find say £20m, even if it was borrowed?

What about the sales of some of their North American franchises?

Surely that would've either given them cold hard cash in their hands, or enabled them to reduce or wipe out other debts they may have had, thus enabling them to acquire further borrowings, if they chose to.

I'd say they are completely ****ed, which is why I have been saying the things I have regarding the costs of sacking Rafa, hiring Mourinho, having zero budgets etc.....

Their American teams are highly leveraged also

[Kronenburg1892]

Their whole plan has been a ticking time bomb imo, unfortunately it looks like Rafa cut the red wire instead of the blue one this season

That quote is the only thing that's made me slightly smile this evening.