Sunday's ref

[Craig_H]

I very much doubt that there's a fifa/uefa directive that says "give the advantage to the attacker via a penalty, even if you dont see it".

[Guest]

That makes no sense.

You say you can see it was outside the area via a replay - fair enough, so we know it was outside.

You then say in the heat of the moment, it's hard to see whether it was inside or out - in which case, if the ref cant tell, he CANT give the penalty.

You can only give a peno if you're 100% sure and you cant be 100% sure of something that didnt happen.

He was kilometres outside the box and Webb was standing metres behind where it actually happened. If he cannot spot this then he should change jobs.

[Exiled_red]

That makes no sense.

You say you can see it was outside the area via a replay - fair enough, so we know it was outside.

You then say in the heat of the moment, it's hard to see whether it was inside or out - in which case, if the ref cant tell, he CANT give the penalty.

You can only give a peno if you're 100% sure and you cant be 100% sure of something that didnt happen.

The referee can only given decisions they see. They can't give decisions based on what they think happened

[Redshadow]

Craig H? You had a lot to say about referees in the Premier League on this thread earlier this week - particularly those regarding Manchester United and I'm writing here to let you know that I'm actually in FULL agreement with you - I've always had my suspicions about the all-singing, all-dancing 'Premier' League even as far back as 1993 - the very name smacks of arrogance and is it now a coincidence that the biggest clubs in said league (i.e. it's serial winners and challengers) are also the RICHEST clubs in said league?

I think not - I think the league was created in the KNOWLEDGE that the rich clubs would effectively 'buy out' the top few positions and make it impossible for others to compete; I actually believe that is WHY it was formed in the first place, to get the rich richer yes but also to benefit the richest of all who will in turn power the whole Premier League mass media/publicity/hype machine - After all just WHO is the richest club in Britain? Who also coincidentally at the time of the Premier League's formation went from being a Very ordinary team to these supposed great serial winners and non-stop champions? Oh yes, our loveable foes from last Sunday of course. Who else? You know sometimes - behind it all, behind the arrogance, the bile, bitter hatred and twisted insults from them, behind the 'favourable' decisions, media sycophancy and disgustingly easy ride 'they' get from journalists all across the board - I still see when we play United and beat them easily as we did in our last 3 meetings before Sunday - the echo of that long-ago side that Ferguson had constructed and which just could NOT win the title no matter what.

You remember don't you? The side that lost at home to the likes of Forest on a regular basis or lost 'must win' games at Anfield to hand the title to Leeds? And I wonder - would they be ANY better than that side now without all those 'contentious' decisions that go in their favour? And you know what? My answer has to be no - I don't think they're Any different now to what they were back then in many ways - they're Still 'us against the world' all the time, they're Still racked with indecision and doubt at crucial times of season and Still capable of appaling fcukups as We demonstrated against them at OT last year. It's just NOW when they look nervous, full of indecision, stuck in a jam (couple of goals down at home or nearly no time left to equalise etc), they nearly ALWAYS get a few 'sympathy' minutes from the referee that mysteriously allows them to equalise or win a game they were losing, a helpful (or invented as on Sunday) penalty to get them back when they'd lost their way; Oh and there's always that other old favourite - the sending off/block booking of the oppositions chief threats as well to make them ease up on United in games against them (notice just WHO we had booked on Sunday? Torres, Gerrard and Mascherano - Not a concidence).

Now we indeed can hardly complain having had our share of ahem 'questionable' decisons during our dominance which may have aided our confidence or given us wins at key times - But the main, KEY difference for me is the fact that NONE of our title wins depended on such decisions but theirs? They are littered with such decisions smoothing (or indeed opening up) the path to the title for them time and again - So much so that they just about RELY on them now; Some examples like this; Look at the injury time to allow Bruce to give them victory in 1993 against Sheffield Wednesday; The sending off of Hyppia and them being given TWO penalties against us in a key game during the run-in of 2002/2003 when they overhauled Arsenal; Us being awarded a penalty at Old Trafford and then having it taken back BEFORE we'd taken it in 1993/1994 when they were under pressure from Blackburn in the league, The sending off of Sol Campbell for Arsenal during the above mentioned 2002/2003 run-in which was JUST before Arsenal had 2 hard away games, look at Masch' being sent off 2 seasons ago during the run-in when they were trailing Chelsea in the table and Just as we were in a good run of form - we All know what happened next, look at the truly awful penalty given against Spurs last season by Sundays ref when they led 2 - 0 at Old Trafford at a time when United were trailing US in the table, look at the 'goal' 500 feet over the line at Old Trafford in 2005 and yet disallowed or the phantom penalty given against Bolton last season to enable them to get out of a 0 - 0 at Old Trafford or look at Wes Brown being allowed to almost knock out Blackburn's keeper with his elbow last season and his 'goal' being permitted to then stand.

When you look at all that and figure out just WHAT it's done to the table (i.e look at the situation before each of the above mentioned games and what would have happened had United done what they looked like doing in most of them and lost/drawn) When you see just what a HUGE effect it has on the top of the Premier League, year-in, year-out and ALL in United's favour - can anyone doubt it's anything BUT systematic corruption at the very Highest level of English Football on a truly grand scale? I can't and I'll tell you this - if all THIS - all we are discussing on here in this thread is NOT down to some English version of 'Calciopoli' centred on United, I'd be VERY surprised. I'll say now - I think it IS in all but name Exactly almost what happened in Italy but so much rests on it here (the credibility of the Premier League, Painfully large amounts of money and a LOT of places at the Gravy Train to name but 3 things), So much rests on it that we'll probably NEVER see it blown wide open. There's just to much 'coincidence' for it not to be arranged somehow - Yes people may say ''luck of the draw'' and 'could happen to anyone' etc but really? REALLY?

What, it could happen So much to a team that if you look back over what is now almost TWO DECADES, you'll find that team getting as many such (if not more) 'decisions' now as they did then? I don't think so - look at us now and the 'non-decisions' WE have suffered from this season - Do you think that would have happened in 1990 to Liverpool FC? I think not. But Since 1993 now nearly 20 years ago - Time and again United have needed confidence boosters, win filips or just help out of a mess of their own making; Time and again, they have received it via 'lenient' refereeing, friendly officialdom or a spineless FA who STILL have the time to come down like a ton of bricks on Any other club whilst those clubs also NEVER get the win filips/confidence boosts or help out of a mess that THEY need If it directly conflicts with United's needs. I'll finish by saying this - IF Italian Referees are seen by UEFA and FIFA as so much better than the English equivalents (and they are - just look how many big events they get) and yet THEY can be tempted so much that Di Santis one of their best and their brightest is now banned from the game after what happened in 2006 - then WHY can't it happen here with OUR officials who we all agree are Far inferior to their Italian cousins? Bottom line is there's Nothing stopping it and it Could happen here - we just don't want to admit it, that's all (quite clearly not in Birdman's case). This is Coincidence is it? - ALL of what I have typed here? I think not - and I think the link is that Glaswegian Whisky Lover - Alex Ferguson or his club - one of the two. Make of it what you will but I fully agree with you Craig - In fact I'll go further and say most people who follow English Football can't/won't see the wood for the trees.............................

[cream]

Ifithadnabinfertheref...


The new bitters?

[Craig_H]

Ifithadnabinfertheref...


The new bitters?

Did you read that on RAWK?

[Paul12]

Craig H? You had a lot to say about referees in the Premier League on this thread earlier this week - particularly those regarding Manchester United and I'm writing here to let you know that I'm actually in FULL agreement with you ....In fact I'll go further and say most people who follow English Football can't/won't see the wood for the trees.............................

I always avoid this website a day after a defeat because it is full of knee jerk reactors, but usually some sanity starts to prevail after a while. Obviously not any more. We are no paranoid, but they out to get us syndrome is alive and well. Like footballers, mangers and us in our work lives, refs are not perfect but do their best and are generally good at some things and not good at others. I don't think Webb is any different from any other ref. What matters in this case is not where the foul started but whether it continued into the penalty area and, with the benefit of slow mo, good angles, and repeated viewing we can see that the fouling stopped inches from the area. So we criticise the referee for not spotting that too. Yet I thought it WAS a penalty at the time and for the first few replays and we all know we would still be screaming had we been the attackers and the penalty not given.

I also know that Utd think they don't get their fair share of decisions; it is what all fans think about their teams.

We would get more penalties if we were to run into the area with the ball more often and play difficvult to defend balls into the area. Utd do that over and over again, and get the penalties (from good decisions and bad) as a result.

[red g]

I always avoid this website a day after a defeat because it is full of knee jerk reactors, but usually some sanity starts to prevail after a while. Obviously not any more. We are no paranoid, but they out to get us syndrome is alive and well. Like footballers, mangers and us in our work lives, refs are not perfect but do their best and are generally good at some things and not good at others. I don't think Webb is any different from any other ref. What matters in this case is not where the foul started but whether it continued into the penalty area and, with the benefit of slow mo, good angles, and repeated viewing we can see that the fouling stopped inches from the area. So we criticise the referee for not spotting that too. Yet I thought it WAS a penalty at the time and for the first few replays and we all know we would still be screaming had we been the attackers and the penalty not given.

I also know that Utd think they don't get their fair share of decisions; it is what all fans think about their teams.

We would get more penalties if we were to run into the area with the ball more often and play difficvult to defend balls into the area. Utd do that over and over again, and get the penalties (from good decisions and bad) as a result.

course they dont, but waht the **** do they know, they are united fans after all.

[Chris]

When you look at all that and figure out just WHAT it's done to the table (i.e look at the situation before each of the above mentioned games and what would have happened had United done what they looked like doing in most of them and lost/drawn) When you see just what a HUGE effect it has on the top of the Premier League, year-in, year-out and ALL in United's favour - can anyone doubt it's anything BUT systematic corruption at the very Highest level of English Football on a truly grand scale? I can't and I'll tell you this - if all THIS - all we are discussing on here in this thread is NOT down to some English version of 'Calciopoli' centred on United, I'd be VERY surprised. I'll say now - I think it IS in all but name Exactly almost what happened in Italy but so much rests on it here (the credibility of the Premier League, Painfully large amounts of money and a LOT of places at the Gravy Train to name but 3 things), So much rests on it that we'll probably NEVER see it blown wide open. There's just to much 'coincidence' for it not to be arranged somehow - Yes people may say ''luck of the draw'' and 'could happen to anyone' etc but really? REALLY?

Hi, WELCOME to the FORUM.

I CAN tell YOU'RE going to be A LOT of fun.

[Craig_H]

I always avoid this website a day after a defeat because it is full of knee jerk reactors, but usually some sanity starts to prevail after a while. Obviously not any more. We are no paranoid, but they out to get us syndrome is alive and well. Like footballers, mangers and us in our work lives, refs are not perfect but do their best and are generally good at some things and not good at others. I don't think Webb is any different from any other ref. What matters in this case is not where the foul started but whether it continued into the penalty area and, with the benefit of slow mo, good angles, and repeated viewing we can see that the fouling stopped inches from the area. So we criticise the referee for not spotting that too. Yet I thought it WAS a penalty at the time and for the first few replays and we all know we would still be screaming had we been the attackers and the penalty not given.

I also know that Utd think they don't get their fair share of decisions; it is what all fans think about their teams.

We would get more penalties if we were to run into the area with the ball more often and play difficvult to defend balls into the area. Utd do that over and over again, and get the penalties (from good decisions and bad) as a result.

1. Nobody said they are out to get us. We've said the mancs seem to get a disproportionate amount of favourable decisions at crucial times.

2. A ref can only give a penalty if he is 100% sure. In this case, it wasnt actually IN the box - so how could he be 100% sure, when it didnt happen? And if he's not 100% sure, he cannot give it.

Thanks.

[Redshadow]

Sorry Chris - Didn't mean to start off with such a broad attack on the Manc's, officialdom and the Premier League in general - It's just Craig's views on here the other day touched a raw nerve for me on a subject that I have VERY strong views on, I was also a little drunk last night after a good night out and that novel above was the result. Hope you didn't mind the liberal use of capitals and yes, it should be fun on here to. But to illustrate what I put more succintly - When you look at the nailed on penalties we were refused against Arsenal at Anfield and Stoke with that joke on Sunday, the equally despicable Penalty decisions given in their favour against Spurs & Bolton last season; Oh, and the one we Got against Spurs this year (which was identical to the one Lucas was booked for at Stoke in every way except one was given and the other wasn't); Don't you think that SOMETHING is wrong somewhere? I do and what's more, it just gets worse by the year.........................

[Redshadow]

BTW Craig H - As my big post last night was addressed to you - Forgive me if I haven't introduced myself - I'm Redshadow - a 31 year old LFC fan whose followed them since he was 6 in 1984 and who now hopes to raise an equally big LFC fan - My new son who was born only last May; I'm rather new on here - which is also one of the reasons why I'm asking what you think as well. Well anyway, I just thought I'd ask Craig - Do you agree with any of what I wrote last night? I know it was a bit OTT at the time due to the lateness of the time it was written; And as I've said elsewhere rather large amounts of alcohol Were imbibed beforehand also; But basically, I was saying that I agree with most of what you wrote re Refs and the Mancs on here but even moreso; I actually believe the evidence of it is everywhere but people just won't look. What's your view on my post?

[BrianF80]

It's ironic, but since Graham Poll stopped being a ref, he's started getting decisions right.

What it shows is a mentality that ignoring the actual rules is ok if in your opinion/bias justice is done. If the ****s would just stick to the actual rules we wouldn't continue to have identical incidents being refereed entirely differently week after week.