Would missing out on 4th be a good thing??

[Redshadow]

In response to Carheex; I'm not deluded - And don't think we have a right to any sort of a 'finish'. I simply said that City (if it is they to overtake us in the Top 4 this season) will find it Much harder next season to focus on the league as they did this season as they'll have the CL itself to compete in as well as FA and League Cups AND the task of requalifying all at once and if you're not used to that sort of sudden deluge of fixtures as Everton showed in 2005 it can (and DOES) affect your form Very badly indeed leaving it very hard for some clubs new to the CL to adjust straight away - I think If City get in, this will happen to them as well.

I also said - and no-one's answered this point yet; If necessary, what's stopping us going back and becoming bad enough for the owners to make so many losses no matter what they do that they effectively become bankrupt due to owning us or sell? (In other words what's to stop us forcing them out) and after that? What's then stopping us from doing precisely what City are doing now in finding a half decent owner who can back us up Properly - regrouping and launching a charge up the table as they have tried to this season? If they can do it with their background and history - being such a supposedly attractive investment that they can get in someone to get everything sorted out; And they can then start an immediate charge up the table once that's done - Why not US at some point in the future?

You my friend, seem to be of the other side - a possible member of the eternal pessimists camp who believes that once we're gone from the Top 4 (IF we go) That's it, goodnight Vienna and we'll NEVER come back; Drifting slowly down the leagues and getting further away from the top as the years go by and the damage the twin horrors cause to us increases; That's fine, but I happen to believe that point of view is incorrect, if not completely wrong. We'll come back alright - the Liverbird isn't often compared to the Phoenix for nothing - Both of them have an uncanny habit of rising from the flames of almost certain demise. I happen to believe THAT little trick is something our club haven't forgotten either - As Liverpool FC themselves will show soon enough.....................

[Norbs]

In response to Carheex; I'm not deluded - And don't think we have a right to any sort of a 'finish'. I simply said that City (if it is they to overtake us in the Top 4 this season) will find it Much harder next season to focus on the league as they did this season as they'll have the CL itself to compete in as well as FA and League Cups AND the task of requalifying all at once and if you're not used to that sort of sudden deluge of fixtures as Everton showed in 2005 it can (and DOES) affect your form Very badly indeed leaving it very hard for some clubs new to the CL to adjust straight away - I think If City get in, this will happen to them as well.

I also said - and no-one's answered this point yet; If necessary, what's stopping us going back and becoming bad enough for the owners to make so many losses no matter what they do that they effectively become bankrupt due to owning us or sell? (In other words what's to stop us forcing them out) and after that? What's then stopping us from doing precisely what City are doing now in finding a half decent owner who can back us up Properly - regrouping and launching a charge up the table as they have tried to this season? If they can do it with their background and history - being such a supposedly attractive investment that they can get in someone to get everything sorted out; And they can then start an immediate charge up the table once that's done - Why not US at some point in the future?

You my friend, seem to be of the other side - a possible member of the eternal pessimists camp who believes that once we're gone from the Top 4 (IF we go) That's it, goodnight Vienna and we'll NEVER come back; Drifting slowly down the leagues and getting further away from the top as the years go by and the damage the twin horrors cause to us increases; That's fine, but I happen to believe that point of view is incorrect, if not completely wrong. We'll come back alright - the Liverbird isn't often compared to the Phoenix for nothing - Both of them have an uncanny habit of rising from the flames of almost certain demise. I happen to believe THAT little trick is something our club haven't forgotten either - As Liverpool FC themselves will show soon enough.....................

I think it'll end up

4 - Spurs
5 - Us
6 - City
7 - Villa

Spurs are the worry, IMO, not City

[carheex]

In response to Carheex; I'm not deluded - And don't think we have a right to any sort of a 'finish'. I simply said that City (if it is they to overtake us in the Top 4 this season) will find it Much harder next season to focus on the league as they did this season as they'll have the CL itself to compete in as well as FA and League Cups AND the task of requalifying all at once and if you're not used to that sort of sudden deluge of fixtures as Everton showed in 2005 it can (and DOES) affect your form Very badly indeed leaving it very hard for some clubs new to the CL to adjust straight away - I think If City get in, this will happen to them as well.

I also said - and no-one's answered this point yet; If necessary, what's stopping us going back and becoming bad enough for the owners to make so many losses no matter what they do that they effectively become bankrupt due to owning us or sell? (In other words what's to stop us forcing them out) and after that? What's then stopping us from doing precisely what City are doing now in finding a half decent owner who can back us up Properly - regrouping and launching a charge up the table as they have tried to this season? If they can do it with their background and history - being such a supposedly attractive investment that they can get in someone to get everything sorted out; And they can then start an immediate charge up the table once that's done - Why not US at some point in the future?

You my friend, seem to be of the other side - a possible member of the eternal pessimists camp who believes that once we're gone from the Top 4 (IF we go) That's it, goodnight Vienna and we'll NEVER come back; Drifting slowly down the leagues and getting further away from the top as the years go by and the damage the twin horrors cause to us increases; That's fine, but I happen to believe that point of view is incorrect, if not completely wrong. We'll come back alright - the Liverbird isn't often compared to the Phoenix for nothing - Both of them have an uncanny habit of rising from the flames of almost certain demise. I happen to believe THAT little trick is something our club haven't forgotten either - As Liverpool FC themselves will show soon enough.....................

It is HIGHLY probable that City & Spurs will finish above us. They have more money to spend than us and will increase that financial gap on us by finishing higher in the league and/or getting a CL spot. Finances and biases aside, most footballers today would prefer to play for a CL side so that decreases the quality of player we can attract. Assume you don't support a club and three teams want you:

Spurs: looking good for a champions league spot
City: great new stadium, also looking for a CL spot but with masses of money and an improving squad - definitely on the rise
Liverpool: no money, out-of-date stadium, europa league football and owned by 2 stubborn businessmen who don't get on with the management or fans

There can't be many who would choose us. And if you think that we should deliberately drop down the table (as if we have any control over that anyway!) in the hope that we sell up and a someone nice and rich takes us over, then I withdraw my "deluded" tag and change it to "retarded".

[kingfunk]

Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez believes how his side finishes the season could have a significant bearing on his transfer options in the summer.

Although the club are sixth in the Barclays Premier League, four points behind fourth-placed Tottenham having played a match more, on paper they have the easiest-looking run-in of all the Champions League hopefuls.

And Liverpool go into a Europa League quarter-final against Benfica next week hoping there is still a chance of winning some silverware.

Benitez believes the incentive to finish fourth and win the Europa League applies not only to his players but any prospective new signings.

"Players want to win trophies and want to finish in the top four," said the Spaniard, who has already agreed a pre-contract deal with Standard Liege forward Milan Jovanovic.

"The players know it is important to perform now for the future and they want to stay here so I think it will be okay.

"We are now in a situation where we have to move forward and try to bring the best from each player.

"It is not easy to stay at a very good level in a season.

"The main thing is we have some players coming back from injuries and if they are together and push together I am sure we will do really well.

"This club is a massive club so if we can progress in the Europa League and finish in the top four a lot of [other] players will be thinking whether to come here or stay where they are."

Last week goalkeeper Jose Reina confirmed he was very close to signing a new long-term contract and now Javier Mascherano has followed suit.

Securing the pair on extended deals was a priority of Benitez's and it seems he has been successful in persuading the 25-year-old Mascherano, who was linked with a move to Barcelona last summer, his future lies at Anfield.

"I have never said I was not happy at Liverpool. That was the press," said the Argentina captain, who has been one of the more consistent performers in a disappointing season - even when filling in as an emergency right-back on a couple of occasions.

"I am happy here and the only way I can show that is with my performances on the pitch.

"The club are talking with my agents. I don't like to be involved in the contract meetings so I leave that to my agents and the people at the club.

"Liverpool know I want to stay. I don't think it will be difficult to arrive at a deal and we will see what happens in the next few weeks."

[spud_gun]

My theory.

Rafa want's GIllette and Hicks out of the club.

After he signed his mega contract extension he was safe in the knowledge that we, Liverpool, can't afford to sack him.

Given that Gilliette and Hicks are firmly entrenched at Anfield and show no signs of selling despite reported offers of 500m from DIC Rafa decided to take matters into his own hands.

He formulated a plan at the start of the season. He called it his 'Nuclear Option'

He's playing the ultimate game of brinkmanship. He's deliberately sabotaging Liverpool's onfield endeavors in order to spped up Gillette and Hick's removal from the club.

He knows that missing out on Champions League football would most likely sound the death knell of the Americans time at the club.

How else can you explain Lucas and Kyut's continual inclusion in the first team?

[Exiled_red]

Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez believes how his side finishes the season could have a significant bearing on his transfer options in the summer.

Although the club are sixth in the Barclays Premier League, four points behind fourth-placed Tottenham having played a match more, on paper they have the easiest-looking run-in of all the Champions League hopefuls.

And Liverpool go into a Europa League quarter-final against Benfica next week hoping there is still a chance of winning some silverware.

Benitez believes the incentive to finish fourth and win the Europa League applies not only to his players but any prospective new signings.

"Players want to win trophies and want to finish in the top four," said the Spaniard, who has already agreed a pre-contract deal with Standard Liege forward Milan Jovanovic.

"The players know it is important to perform now for the future and they want to stay here so I think it will be okay.

"We are now in a situation where we have to move forward and try to bring the best from each player.

"It is not easy to stay at a very good level in a season.

"The main thing is we have some players coming back from injuries and if they are together and push together I am sure we will do really well.

"This club is a massive club so if we can progress in the Europa League and finish in the top four a lot of [other] players will be thinking whether to come here or stay where they are."

Last week goalkeeper Jose Reina confirmed he was very close to signing a new long-term contract and now Javier Mascherano has followed suit.

Securing the pair on extended deals was a priority of Benitez's and it seems he has been successful in persuading the 25-year-old Mascherano, who was linked with a move to Barcelona last summer, his future lies at Anfield.

"I have never said I was not happy at Liverpool. That was the press," said the Argentina captain, who has been one of the more consistent performers in a disappointing season - even when filling in as an emergency right-back on a couple of occasions.

"I am happy here and the only way I can show that is with my performances on the pitch.

"The club are talking with my agents. I don't like to be involved in the contract meetings so I leave that to my agents and the people at the club.

"Liverpool know I want to stay. I don't think it will be difficult to arrive at a deal and we will see what happens in the next few weeks."

Unfortunately I suspect that means i we finish 4th we'll have a net spend ~zero, if not we'll be selling players to fill the gap in budget caused by missing sponsorship/champions league money

[Craig_H]

My theory.

Rafa want's GIllette and Hicks out of the club.

After he signed his mega contract extension he was safe in the knowledge that we, Liverpool, can't afford to sack him.

Given that Gilliette and Hicks are firmly entrenched at Anfield and show no signs of selling despite reported offers of 500m from DIC Rafa decided to take matters into his own hands.

He formulated a plan at the start of the season. He called it his 'Nuclear Option'

He's playing the ultimate game of brinkmanship. He's deliberately sabotaging Liverpool's onfield endeavors in order to spped up Gillette and Hick's removal from the club.

He knows that missing out on Champions League football would most likely sound the death knell of the Americans time at the club.

How else can you explain Lucas and Kyut's continual inclusion in the first team?

Complete and utter baloney.

[red g]

[QUOTE=spud_gun;1559512]My theory.

Rafa want's GIllette and Hicks out of the club.

After he signed his mega contract extension he was safe in the knowledge that we, Liverpool, can't afford to sack him.

Given that Gilliette and Hicks are firmly entrenched at Anfield and show no signs of selling despite reported offers of 500m from DIC Rafa decided to take matters into his own hands.

He formulated a plan at the start of the season. He called it his 'Nuclear Option'

He's playing the ultimate game of brinkmanship. He's deliberately sabotaging Liverpool's onfield endeavors in order to spped up Gillette and Hick's removal from the club.

He knows that missing out on Champions League football would most likely sound the death knell of the Americans time at the club.

How else can you explain Lucas and Kyut's continual inclusion in the first team?[/QUOTE]

rafa's cautious approach?

[Redshadow]

Craig - I think Spud gun might have a point - How else do you explain us going on goal-laden runs and beating ALL in front of us during September and then on command again when we absolutely HAD to during March? I think it started after the Hull game when that member of SOS met Gillette and PROVED he was lying in an interview - I think Rafa' found out about that and combined with what happened to his summer transfer fund as well as ALL the money he'd earned from player sales - It so disillusioned him with those twin b*stards that he forumulated this so-called 'Nuclear' option and hence what's happened this season.

How else again do you explain us going from Second in the league to THIS in less than a year? It's the only theory that fits IMO and don't forget from his time at the Mestalla that Rafa's NOT afraid to take on football clubs boards if necessary - He may be doing just that as we speak in his own little way. The way those two have ruined our club as well - I wouldn't blame him either. The sooner they're gone, the better...................................

[Reece]

If anyone genuinely thinks that Rafa has been deliberating getting poor results due to some ulterior motive, then they clearly have no idea of the character of the man. I just can't believe anyone would seriously suggest this.

[red g]

Craig - I think Spud gun might have a point - How else do you explain us going on goal-laden runs and beating ALL in front of us during September and then on command again when we absolutely HAD to during March? I think it started after the Hull game when that member of SOS met Gillette and PROVED he was lying in an interview - I think Rafa' found out about that and combined with what happened to his summer transfer fund as well as ALL the money he'd earned from player sales - It so disillusioned him with those twin b*stards that he forumulated this so-called 'Nuclear' option and hence what's happened this season.

How else again do you explain us going from Second in the league to THIS in less than a year? It's the only theory that fits IMO and don't forget from his time at the Mestalla that Rafa's NOT afraid to take on football clubs boards if necessary - He may be doing just that as we speak in his own little way. The way those two have ruined our club as well - I wouldn't blame him either. The sooner they're gone, the better...................................

Sheer lunacy

So do you think if Torres was fit all season he would have dropped him becuase he would have won us to many games?

[Redshadow]

Carheex - I don't think we should deliberately drop down the table and I'd be grateful if you'd stop the 'deluded' and 'retarded' insults please. I've said nothing nasty to or about you so why such remarks to me? Anyway, as I said I don't think we're deliberately dropping down the table - I meant to say what IF the team suddenly started doingso badly that they do miss out on the CL and it DID force the owners out; Then? Lo and behold, it suddenly starts happening as we Do drop down the table and Are looking unlikely for the CL;

As you'll see if you read Spud Gun's post - It's not just me who thinks this scenario is a tad little suspicious in it's timing which is absolutely the worst possible for the owners and is causing them no end of damage at the moment due to our on-field losses. It all fits into place a little TO comfortably for my liking hence my view that our form may not be an accident - But even if it isn't deliberate we can't argue that the cost-cutting, sale of squad members and wholesale Non-backing of Rafa' has caused this no?

As to Spurs, Villa OR City finishing above us - I've said before and I'll say again - What if they do? If City can come from the mess They were in to what they are now and believe me, City were Far worse off than us as recently as 2006 or so, then what's to stop us rising from an equally large mess to being bought out by someone as influential as their new owners?

We may indeed have less prospects re stadium and in the table than them at the moment but what we DO have that neither they nor Spurs possess is genuine class, a sense of history and the aura of a 'big' club, all of which can count big with potential signings - None of our current competitors have that - why do you think they're scrambling madly for the CL place now? One season in for them and out for us of the CL won't change that.

Eventually what's happening at present will affect our asking price or how much the twin horrors are going to ask for us and we WILL become a bargain to someone with the appropriate resources to own and back us properly. When that happens, the effect of us receiving such backing will be Far more than Spurs or City - City can have all the backing they like but it would take them nigh on 40 years to reach our current position which is a weakness on their part when you compare the two clubs and one which a season of being where they need to be can't on it's own rectify.

To finish, I'm basically saying that one season out of the CL won't kill us - Nor will the boosts City and Spurs get as a result - I happen to believe that neither of them is good enough or Will be good enough next year to sustain what they've done this year - I think yes, we'll suffer from what's happened this season but A) It's not terminal and B) We can (Will) come back. I just think that in this case though we may need to take 5 steps back (the current season and all it's woes) to take 1 Huge leap forward (getting rid of the owners). Still, we shall see soon enough - Time will tell as it always does......................

[Redshadow]

Red G and Reece - OK maybe Rafa' Hasn't deliberately got us poor results but don't you think it's a BIT suspicious that when Aquilani's fit (having cost so much) he leaves him on the bench all the time and plays Lucas + Mascherano until he HAS to get wins to keep his own job safe? Don't you think it a little suspicious that we went from thrashing teams 4 - 0 and 6 - 1 in September to NOT scoring 3 goals in a match all the way from September until February? What about the failure to change formation or fit in current personnel despite the 4 - 2 - 3 - 1 clearly misfiring without Xabi until March? Our chronic lack of away goals since September? All rather odd no? Given how well we did last season. But assuming he DIDN'T do such things as deliberately ensure we did badly - can you come up with another reason for Rafa' behaving in the above manner just when we needed inspiration from him the most? I can't.

Don't forget in the past, when we've needed something - be it tactical, inspirational, a substition whatever to REALLY get us a result - then Rafa's always provided it but this season? Not a flicker, the same grinding formation game in - game out, the same soul-destroying (anti) football, the same terrible results - Why? Maybe Rafa just doesn't care how our results go after seeing just how much the owners will lie to remain in charge at close quarters and this shows in the team. Either way - I think only Rafa' Benitez is the man who can answer that and I doubt he'll say anything anytime soon.......................

[carheex]

Carheex - I don't think we should deliberately drop down the table and I'd be grateful if you'd stop the 'deluded' and 'retarded' insults please. I've said nothing nasty to or about you so why such remarks to me? Anyway, as I said I don't think we're deliberately dropping down the table - I meant to say what IF the team suddenly started doingso badly that they do miss out on the CL and it DID force the owners out; Then? Lo and behold, it suddenly starts happening as we Do drop down the table and Are looking unlikely for the CL;

As you'll see if you read Spud Gun's post - It's not just me who thinks this scenario is a tad little suspicious in it's timing which is absolutely the worst possible for the owners and is causing them no end of damage at the moment due to our on-field losses. It all fits into place a little TO comfortably for my liking hence my view that our form may not be an accident - But even if it isn't deliberate we can't argue that the cost-cutting, sale of squad members and wholesale Non-backing of Rafa' has caused this no?

As to Spurs, Villa OR City finishing above us - I've said before and I'll say again - What if they do? If City can come from the mess They were in to what they are now and believe me, City were Far worse off than us as recently as 2006 or so, then what's to stop us rising from an equally large mess to being bought out by someone as influential as their new owners?

We may indeed have less prospects re stadium and in the table than them at the moment but what we DO have that neither they nor Spurs possess is genuine class, a sense of history and the aura of a 'big' club, all of which can count big with potential signings - None of our current competitors have that - why do you think they're scrambling madly for the CL place now? One season in for them and out for us of the CL won't change that.

Eventually what's happening at present will affect our asking price or how much the twin horrors are going to ask for us and we WILL become a bargain to someone with the appropriate resources to own and back us properly. When that happens, the effect of us receiving such backing will be Far more than Spurs or City - City can have all the backing they like but it would take them nigh on 40 years to reach our current position which is a weakness on their part when you compare the two clubs and one which a season of being where they need to be can't on it's own rectify.

To finish, I'm basically saying that one season out of the CL won't kill us - Nor will the boosts City and Spurs get as a result - I happen to believe that neither of them is good enough or Will be good enough next year to sustain what they've done this year - I think yes, we'll suffer from what's happened this season but A) It's not terminal and B) We can (Will) come back. I just think that in this case though we may need to take 5 steps back (the current season and all it's woes) to take 1 Huge leap forward (getting rid of the owners). Still, we shall see soon enough - Time will tell as it always does......................

Pity. I was going to withdraw my "insults" until I read the above. I'm sick of hearing this kind of crap about us having the "best fans" and that old nugget "form is temporary, class is permanent". It means **** all! ALL clubs say they have the best fans, and what use is "permanent class" if it wins you **** all!? Would you say that all of our players deliberately playing badly to finish low down the table was a "classy" and professional thing to do?!?! You sir, have been upgraded to a cliched knobhead.

[carheex]

Sheer lunacy

So do you think if Torres was fit all season he would have dropped him becuase he would have won us to many games?

Redshadow thinks that. I'm sure he also thinks that the best way to attract top players for Torres to play alongside, is by luring them from overseas with promises of 50% tax, europa league football and mid-table battles with birmingham and everton!