A question about Rafa...

[Taxi]

I almost bit

[-V-]

Pompey away. We went to the worst team in the league and played 4 defenders, 2 holding mids and an extra 2 more fullbacks. 4 ****ing full-backs we played. We sat there and let them run all over us and beat us. So so embarrasing.

5 Agger
23 Carragher
38 Dossena
8 Gerrard
22 Insua
2 Johnson
18 Kuyt
21 Leiva
20 Mascherano
25 Reina
9 Torres


Subs
12 Aurelio (68)
15 Benayoun (53)
26 Spearing (88)

Not sure what your point is here Lector. I'll never forget that game, its burned into my memory it was that bad. Kuyt was playing pretty much a wingback that game as was Dossena. Lucas and Mascher couldn't have played any deeper.

We basically said to the worst team in the premier league, "were too scared to play football against you so we'll just sit back with our 8 defensive players and let you have a go at us"

[Craig_H]

If you're not gonna count Kuyt as an attacking player, you can't count Johnson as a defensive one.

I figured someone might say that, and i think it's a fair point.

Ok, so 8 defensive players and 3 attacking ones. Away at the dire Pompey.

Does that sound like a mentality of "just play your game and win" ?

[Taxi]

Not sure what your point is here Lector. I'll never forget that game, its burned into my memory it was that bad. Kuyt was playing pretty much a wingback that game as was Dossena. Lucas and Mascher couldn't have played any deeper.

We basically said to the worst team in the premier league, "were too scared to play football against you so we'll just sit back with our 8 defensive players and let you have a go at us"

The players have to take responsiblity for that performance though. They're professional footballers playing for Liverpool so they should be able to beat the bottom of the table team, but then they were at home though and its not an easy place to go.

If Rafa had gone there gung-ho and we'd lost the same people would be moaning and saying that we should've played more defensively.

[Craig_H]

Players can only do as instructed though. They cant make forward runs and attack, if rafa's told them to keep their shape and stay compact.

[Taxi]

Players can only do as instructed though. They cant make forward runs and attack, if rafa's told them to keep their shape and stay compact.

They're not robots, they're footballers so we can't play Rafa for them not committing more going forward. I think it was all about a lack of confidence that came from losing too many games early on (due to injuries and a lack of financial support in the summer).

[Craig_H]

They're not robots, they're footballers so we can't play Rafa for them not committing more going forward. I think it was all about a lack of confidence that came from losing too many games early on (due to injuries and a lack of financial support in the summer).

They're not robots, but they're still required to follow instructions - do you really think Rafa would tolerate players going out on the park and doing whatever they felt like doing, whilst ignoring his instructions?

Their feet wouldnt touch the ground and they'd certainly not keep being picked.

[Lecter]

If you're not gonna count Kuyt as an attacking player, you can't count Johnson as a defensive one.

[Taxi]

They're not robots, but they're still required to follow instructions - do you really think Rafa would tolerate players going out on the park and doing whatever they felt like doing, whilst ignoring his instructions?

Their feet wouldnt touch the ground and they'd certainly not keep being picked.

Great, I can post in a PeteBest style for 24 hours.

[Craig_H]

at Taxi


Re Lecter

Maybe we should just switch their positions - you've got one who's primarily a defender, but is said to struggle with the defensive side of the game, whilst excelling when it comes to going forward and creating opportunities. And you've got another, who is known for being a forward/winger, but is renowned not for his creativity or goalscoring prowess, but for his solidity, workrate and attitude.

If you'd read the above descriptions without the terms 'defender' and 'forward/winger' and without knowing who i was talking about, who would you put where?

[Lecter]

Not sure what your point is here Lector. I'll never forget that game, its burned into my memory it was that bad. Kuyt was playing pretty much a wingback that game as was Dossena. Lucas and Mascher couldn't have played any deeper.

We basically said to the worst team in the premier league, "were too scared to play football against you so we'll just sit back with our 8 defensive players and let you have a go at us"

We didnt play 4 defenders 2 holding players AND two fullbacks as you suggested

IF you want to criticise Benitez at least use facts all this nonsense about him playing 2 fullbacks as midfielders is rubbish

All I saw that day was a team performing atrociously tactics had sod all to do with the result

As craig H is fond is saying that side is easily capable of beating X, Y & Z but football isnt played on PC's or paper its played on grass when you have factors like players desire / performance

I actually think Benitez has made fundamental mistakes this season but I dont buy the argument that defensive tactics is holding back a team capable of producing significantly better results

IMO player performances count as much if not more than any tactics one might or might not employ

[Craig_H]

Lec, when you look at the way we played last season, from Madrid away onwards, you cant possibly tell me that rafa's sending them out with the same mentality as he was for that period of last season, can you?

It's not about tactics, it's about mentality. Right now (and for 90% of his tenure) we play with a cautious mindset, a 'be careful and be scared of what might happen' type of mentality, which has cost us big time.

Of course player performances count, but if he's picking 8 players who's primary role is to keep us defensively sound, of course we'll struggle to score goals. We'll have 2 or 3 players getting forward, against 5 or 6 defenders, we'll have the ball wide and only ONE player to aim at in the box. It's simple stuff really, if you commit bodies forward and commit the opposition's defenders, you're likely to make a breakthrough sooner or later.

Do you think it's coincidence that, over the years, United have played with the kind of mindset where they push numbers forward when they need a goal, and have invariably got the goals and won the titles?

[Lecter]

at Taxi


Re Lecter

Maybe we should just switch their positions - you've got one who's primarily a defender, but is said to struggle with the defensive side of the game, whilst excelling when it comes to going forward and creating opportunities. And you've got another, who is known for being a forward/winger, but is renowned not for his creativity or goalscoring prowess, but for his solidity, workrate and attitude.

If you'd read the above descriptions without the terms 'defender' and 'forward/winger' and without knowing who i was talking about, who would you put where?

Ok taking up your point about Kuyt being "defensive" how would you class Jimmy Case or R.Kennedy?

Because to me they worked hard and grafted and helped out their fullbacks but equally I wouldnt class them as flying wingers

Maybe Paisley was ultra negative just like Benitez

[Craig_H]

Both of your examples are before my time and as such, i wouldnt have seen enough of them to form a proper judgement.

But more generally speaking, do you therefore think that Rafa ISNT guilty of playing it too cautiously too often, and restricting our ability to get goals, against lesser sides, especially away from home?

If you think he hasnt - that must equate to you thinking our away performances and return of goals is proportionate to the quality of players/team we have. I cant tell you how emphatically i'd disagree with that notion.

[Lecter]

Lec, when you look at the way we played last season, from Madrid away onwards, you cant possibly tell me that rafa's sending them out with the same mentality as he was for that period of last season, can you?

It's not about tactics, it's about mentality. Right now (and for 90% of his tenure) we play with a cautious mindset, a 'be careful and be scared of what might happen' type of mentality, which has cost us big time.

You see this is where you and I differ

You have to ask yourself how much of the mentality is down to the manager and how much down to the players

You would obviously blame the manager, whereas I would be less likely to

To me our attitude stunk from day one this season. Players cant blame the manager for that as this is the same manager who guided them to second place

I know I've alluded to it in the past (as has Pepe Reina) but I cant help but feel that the players went with an attitude that finishing second was their last chance saloon, that coupled with a complete lack of investment which further deflated them

The first poor result put the players in a downward spiralling mood and we took an age to recover

Now to me Rafa's motivational skills should be questioned not immediately but after the first couple of poor results, but he needs a response on the pitch and we never got that. Not even from players who have traditionally sweated bullets for the team in the past (Carragher for instance)

I think the situation was complicated by Torres & Gerrard injuries which have also affected their own mentalities badly

I've said before to me pointing the finger solely at the manager is very easy but to me it goes beyond that

I've played semi pro football and have been in situations where you had to dig deep and its as much (if not more) down to the players own reactions as it is to the staff.