A question about Rafa...

[Lecter]

Both of your examples are before my time and as such, i wouldnt have seen enough of them to form a proper judgement.

But more generally speaking, do you therefore think that Rafa ISNT guilty of playing it too cautiously too often, and restricting our ability to get goals, against lesser sides, especially away from home?

If you think he hasnt - that must equate to you thinking our away performances and return of goals is proportionate to the quality of players/team we have. I cant tell you how emphatically i'd disagree with that notion.

I dont believe Rafas restricts the players, I think our away form stems from one thing

Players underperforming

Torres and Gerrard have managed how many goals this season?? Its far less than they got last season

Take Rooney out of United for a long period they'd be up **** street

[Craig_H]

You see this is where you and I differ

You have to ask yourself how much of the mentality is down to the manager and how much down to the players

You would obviously blame the manager, whereas I would be less likely to

To me our attitude stunk from day one this season. Players cant blame the manager for that as this is the same manager who guided them to second place

I know I've alluded to it in the past (as has Pepe Reina) but I cant help but feel that the players went with an attitude that finishing second was their last chance saloon, that coupled with a complete lack of investment which further deflated them

The first poor result put the players in a downward spiralling mood and we took an age to recover

Now to me Rafa's motivational skills should be questioned not immediately but after the first couple of poor results, but he needs a response on the pitch and we never got that. Not even from players who have traditionally sweated bullets for the team in the past (Carragher for instance)

I think the situation was complicated by Torres & Gerrard injuries which have also affected their own mentalities badly

I've said before to me pointing the finger solely at the manager is very easy but to me it goes beyond that

I've played semi pro football and have been in situations where you had to dig deep and its as much (if not more) down to the players own reactions as it is to the staff.

I actually do agree with most of that. At times, the commitment of the players has been shockingly absent.


But (you knew there was one coming ) i still think it's a big part of a manager's responsibility to get player's heads up and get them wanting to perform. Rafa's failed to do that, for one reason or another and IMO, if the manager cannot consistently get the players wanting it badly enough, then (whether it's fair or not), he has to go because you cant replace the whole squad.

[Craig_H]

I dont believe Rafas restricts the players, I think our away form stems from one thing

Players underperforming

Torres and Gerrard have managed how many goals this season?? Its far less than they got last season

Take Rooney out of United for a long period they'd be up **** street

Yes but why are they underperforming? It makes no sense to me, that they'd be given the same sort of mindset home and away, but mysteriously not perform away, when they have done so at home. Why would it suddenly be completely at the other end of the spectrum, if rafa encourages them to play expansive attacking football away from home?

There's no logic in that.

As i've said, i've seen it with my own eyes in away games, where we dont press people forward, we dont push on, dont commit bodies into the box and the consquence is we have two attacking players in a position to produce chances/goals, but they'll be faced with 6 opponents trying to stop them - it's a thankless task.

At home, we're a bit more attacking in our mindset, push more bodies forward and, crucially, most of our opponents come to Anfield with no real expectation of winning, so they sit back, put themselves on the back foot and encourages us forward.

[banditos]

IMO the difference in performance levels between late last season and most of this season is to do with the players confidence, in themselves, team mates and the way we play, rather than any change in what Rafa has told them to do.

The confident, swaggering, attacking football was on show against Sunderland last week, but it seems to disappear away from home.
I blame Rafa for not hiring better sport psychologists.

[Craig_H]

I agree that confidence plays a part too, i dont think it's JUST the playing mentality that rafa instills, but i think it plays a part too.

[Lecter]

Yes but why are they underperforming? It makes no sense to me, that they'd be given the same sort of mindset home and away, but mysteriously not perform away, when they have done so at home. Why would it suddenly be completely at the other end of the spectrum, if rafa encourages them to play expansive attacking football away from home?

There's no logic in that.

As i've said, i've seen it with my own eyes in away games, where we dont press people forward, we dont push on, dont commit bodies into the box and the consquence is we have two attacking players in a position to produce chances/goals, but they'll be faced with 6 opponents trying to stop them - it's a thankless task.

At home, we're a bit more attacking in our mindset, push more bodies forward and, crucially, most of our opponents come to Anfield with no real expectation of winning, so they sit back, put themselves on the back foot and encourages us forward.

To me we've underperformed home and away early part of the season

I think you have hit the nail on the head with your last sentence. At Anfield opposition come with a defeated attitude. At home they get some belief and actually compete with us and thats were we have fallen. We havent had enough fight or desire in the side all season. Heads have dropped and we havent recovered, part of that is Rafa's fault but for me the players have had an easy ride from the fans this season because some of them havent done enough at times to earn to wear that shirt EVER again nevrmind in the next game

[Lecter]

IMO the difference in performance levels between late last season and most of this season is to do with the players confidence, in themselves, team mates and the way we play, rather than any change in what Rafa has told them to do.

The confident, swaggering, attacking football was on show against Sunderland last week, but it seems to disappear away from home.
I blame Rafa for not hiring better sport psychologists.

Thing is we scored 2 goals against Sunderland in quick succession

In other games we have played well gone a goal up but always been fragile

When we have subsequently conceeded a goal the confidence has just drained away from us

I'm not enamored with Rafa this season by any means but I am literally furious with the performances of some of our players this season, they might as well have sat with me and watched it at times because they have done sod all on the pitch

[JudgeRed]

Anyone can pinpoint the best players in the world and say i want him, him and him. Anyone can do it.

You dont get to just buy the best players all the time though, that's not realistic and if rafa cant get us in the CL positions with a side featuring Pepe, Agger, Carra, Mascher, Johnson, Gerrard & Torres, then he's simply not good enough.

Thats why I said within reason in my original post. Maybe if G&T had been fully fit all season things would ve been different. IMO this club has been in a generally upward trajectory for the majority of Rafas tenure, culminating in the runners up spot last season. For this, i believe he deserves one more season.

[Ben_Itez]

IMO this club has been in a generally upward trajectory for the majority of Rafas tenure, culminating in the runners up spot last season. For this, i believe he deserves one more season.

[banditos]

Thats why I said within reason in my original post. Maybe if G&T had been fully fit all season things would ve been different. IMO this club has been in a generally upward trajectory for the majority of Rafas tenure, culminating in the runners up spot last season. For this, i believe he deserves one more season.

[Craig_H]

To me we've underperformed home and away early part of the season

I think you have hit the nail on the head with your last sentence. At Anfield opposition come with a defeated attitude. At home they get some belief and actually compete with us and thats were we have fallen. We havent had enough fight or desire in the side all season. Heads have dropped and we havent recovered, part of that is Rafa's fault but for me the players have had an easy ride from the fans this season because some of them havent done enough at times to earn to wear that shirt EVER again nevrmind in the next game

So when those same players keep getting picked and keeping showing the same lack of attitude and desire, who's fault is that?

[Lecter]

So when those same players keep getting picked and keeping showing the same lack of attitude and desire, who's fault is that?

Thats fair comment however with the quality of our squad any manager would be caught between the devil and the deep blue sea in terms of selection

Take the left hand side for instance we have Reira, Babel & Benayoun. Yossi is arguably our best option there but if he aint performing then its like playing russian roulette trying to pick one of the other two to do something for you

Rafa is however the man who bought those players so on that score he has to live and die by the sword however in terms of selection its one of the few things were I think any manager would struggle because the quality of the squad is just not up to it imo

On paper there are some decent players BUT they either completely lack passion, desire and endeavour or are dreadfully inconsistant

[Craig_H]

Well personally, i think the manager has some responsibility when it comes to instilling some drive and passion into the players and making them WANT to perform and win.

I dont think ferguson's had many players who you could say didnt have the desire to play and win for him. That's part of a manager's remit, for me.

Re Babel, he's been performing well for the short cameos he's had, but yet still doesnt get a consistent run of starts. He's showing desire, passion, endeavour and more consistency - and rafa's dropping him. So the "they either completely lack passion, desire and endeavour or are dreadfully inconsistant" argument doesnt apply to him at the moment.

[Icon]

Anyone think there's anything in this

[banditos]

Anyone think there's anything in this

Juve fans mustn't visit this forum if Rafa's their No.1 choice.