Our Striker problems are self inflicted

[Exiled_red]

Doesn't work like that.
Why would we practise 4-4-2 in training with Torres when we have no intention of playing that formation with him in the team in any game.

Or should Rafa say "listen Nando, you are injured a lot no? you sit out the next 4 days training while we look at possibilities when we play without you"

Just doesn't happen

Who plays 4-4-2 these days??
And why would players be used to that formation as there are 10's of variations on a 4-4-2 shape

I'm not necessarily saying 442 but there are times in games where we will bring on a second striker or change from our usual system somehow. For example Kuyt gets played as a striker at times, does Rafa say we play with one up front and Torres is fit, I'm not going to practice playing you in that role despite the fact you'll probably play a quarter of a season in that position?

Rafa is all about 'possibilites' surely we don't just practice playing one way

[PTP]

i do think that a lot of torres injury come down to how he has been used, and how much he has played. Iirc i don't think he has had a proper break since we signed, long seasons, followed by summer tournements, rushed back from injuries for both club and country, playing up top on your tod chasing every ball......after a while it's going to take its toll.

I may be wrong, but didn't Ian rush have his best season with that michael robinson playing alongside him - rush would close down etc, but robinson did all the donkey work, chasing balls down the flanks, running after no hopers, taking the kicks etc

I really do think that another partner, or some more support for torres at times would have helped him. Be it kuyt doing the running after long balls, chasing down defenders, or ngog just on too take some kicks

[The Birdman]

I'm not necessarily saying 442 but there are times in games where we will bring on a second striker or change from our usual system somehow. For example Kuyt gets played as a striker at times, does Rafa say we play with one up front and Torres is fit, I'm not going to practice playing you in that role despite the fact you'll probably play a quarter of a season in that position?

Rafa is all about 'possibilites' surely we don't just practice playing one way

I'm not arguing with you in a Craig H styley but since Torres has been here when have we played with 2 right up top, not with someone like Kuyt dropping off but someone right alongside Torres??
I honestly can't remember a game, for Spain he doesn't play with Villa right up alongside him.

We would adjust the shape and pattern of play accordingly for when Torres was out and we were using Kuyt up there because his playing style is different i.e he doesn't have the pace to go in behind.

With Ngog while I'm not suggesting for 1 minute he is a 10th of the player Torres is he is the closest in playing style to him we have, he is capable of holding it up, capable of stretching defenders in behind and capable of linking play and also taking defenders on on 1 on 1 situations. It's just that because of his age and lack of experience Ngog is inconsistant and frustrating at times

[Exiled_red]

I'm not arguing with you in a Craig H styley but since Torres has been here when have we played with 2 right up top, not with someone like Kuyt dropping off but someone right alongside Torres??
I honestly can't remember a game, for Spain he doesn't play with Villa right up alongside him.

We would adjust the shape and pattern of play accordingly for when Torres was out and we were using Kuyt up there because his playing style is different i.e he doesn't have the pace to go in behind.

With Ngog while I'm not suggesting for 1 minute he is a 10th of the player Torres is he is the closest in playing style to him we have, he is capable of holding it up, capable of stretching defenders in behind and capable of linking play and also taking defenders on on 1 on 1 situations. It's just that because of his age and lack of experience Ngog is inconsistant and frustrating at times

I don't see it as an arguement, just a discussion of different views. I'm not pretending to have the answers, I'm just trying to figure out why things have gone so badly wrong. For me our lack of goals this season has been a major problem, and I'm just coming up with random suggestions and ideas, of what I'd try if I were the manager (although if I were we'd almost certainly be in a much worse state than we are at present )

[el matador]

Ive said this before and I will say it again

Fernando Torres's body simply isnt up to playing 60 games a season 38 of those against neanderthal english prem league defenders who actually take pride in kicking the **** out of him.

If we persist with this 451 formation the boy will miss 20 or so games every season with injuries and its not fair to expect him to put his body on the line in every game.

The guy is a ferrari in a banger smash up race and no self respecting forward is going to be willing to play second fiddle to fernando and waiting until he gets injured to get some game time.

It just wont work and the formation has to be changed.

Another thing is that unless torres plays upfront, playing gerrard in the hole is also a total waste of a player and this is the problem with rafa, he wont create a system to suit what he's got but persists with his system even when we dont have the personnel to play it. We dont seem to have a plan B and its always 4231 no matter what.

He is just completely inflexible and stubborn and this has cost us dearly in several games this season when the team line up just wasnt working and if city get fourth from us its not a question of them winning it off us, for me its a matter of rafa handing it to them on a plate.

[the rev leeroy brown]

i've said it before on here and i'll say it again and again........i would love to see us play a 3-5-2. every time we have played it under rafa, we have looked better than the norm.

with 3 centre backs we could get away with carra losing more pace for at least 3 more years.

with a 5 man mid field we could afford to have 2 sitting midfieders AND gerard from deep. plus, we could utilise johson down the right to his fullest potential....attacking.

2 men up top ( torres and one other ) would give us more bite as well.

people claim 3-5-2 is a defensive option but for me it is one of the most attacking too.

[Exiled_red]

i've said it before on here and i'll say it again and again........i would love to see us play a 3-5-2. every time we have played it under rafa, we have looked better than the norm.

with 3 centre backs we could get away with carra losing more pace for at least 3 more years.

with a 5 man mid field we could afford to have 2 sitting midfieders AND gerard from deep. plus, we could utilise johson down the right to his fullest potential....attacking.

2 men up top ( torres and one other ) would give us more bite as well.

people claim 3-5-2 is a defensive option but for me it is one of the most attacking too.

The problem with it usually ends up being that the wingbacks have the responsibility to pick up opposition wingers which leads to it becoming a 5-3-2

[Parr_Zee]

I'm not arguing with you in a Craig H styley but since Torres has been here when have we played with 2 right up top, not with someone like Kuyt dropping off but someone right alongside Torres??
I honestly can't remember a game, for Spain he doesn't play with Villa right up alongside him.

Whenever he played with Crouch in his first season ... they linked up well too.

Where does Villa play for Spain then?

[The Birdman]

Whenever he played with Crouch in his first season ... they linked up well too.

Where does Villa play for Spain then?

What games did Torres and Crouch start together ?? I'm not doubting you just asking the question because I don't know myself, think one of them may have been Reading away in the Carling Cup perhaps??

Villa plays off Torres a little like Gerrard does for us, or when they play 4-3-3 he plays one of the wide roles.

[dww]

Not completely convinced by this argument but I see where it is coming from.

For me the problem is and has been for a while that we don't have enough goal threats in the team. Ideally you want to be putting 3 or 4 players out of that type in any game. We have two players who have consistently been goal threats in Gerrard and Torres, then two who are in the right circumstances in Benayoun and Kuyt.

With the injury records of Gerrard and Torres that leaves us putting out teams which aren't really that threatening.

Ngog in some ways is an excellent tactical replacement for Torres but he isn't (yet, certainly) a real goal scoring threat for us. This is compounded by the fact that we don't even have a real tactical one for one replacement for Gerrard playing off the main striker. Arguably this season Gerrard's poor form has made him not even fit the bill as a goal scorer.

Ideally I think we need to look to replace Riera and Babel with players who score more and perhaps Benayoun too. It is possible that Benayoun could be used more centrally which is why I leave him out of this list but I think his poor contribution to the pressing game will count against him long term.

People complained bitterly enough when Kuyt was played up front, now they are calling for it. I can see the Kuyt/Ngog argument too but I think that being as we have no goal scoring player to put on the right in this context it is merely robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[Exiled_red]

Not completely convinced by this argument but I see where it is coming from.

For me the problem is and has been for a while that we don't have enough goal threats in the team. Ideally you want to be putting 3 or 4 players out of that type in any game. We have two players who have consistently been goal threats in Gerrard and Torres, then two who are in the right circumstances in Benayoun and Kuyt.

With the injury records of Gerrard and Torres that leaves us putting out teams which aren't really that threatening.

Ngog in some ways is an excellent tactical replacement for Torres but he isn't (yet, certainly) a real goal scoring threat for us. This is compounded by the fact that we don't even have a real tactical one for one replacement for Gerrard off him. Arguably this season Gerrard's poor form has made him not even fit the bill as a goal scorer.

Ideally I think we need to look to replace Riera and Babel with players who score more and perhaps Benayoun too. It is possible that Benayoun could be used more centrally which is why I leave him out of this list but I think his poor contribution to the pressing game will count against him long term.

People complained bitterly enough when Kuyt was played up front, now they are calling for it. I can see the Kuyt/Ngog argument too but I think that being as we have no goal scoring player to put on the right in this context it is merely robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Good post.

Just in reference to the highlighted bit I would switch Kuyt upfront if there he would be in a front 2 as I feel he would score more goals there than he would on the right and if Torres is out we definately need this, but I don't like Kuyt as the lone front man, for me he can't play that role effectively. If Torres is fit I'm not sure if we should go with a partner for him or not. If Gerrard were playing well off him I'd definately say no, but this isn't the case at present, and we need to look at our options.

[dww]

I'd be interested to see Kuyt's scoring record right or as part of the strike partnership (and that broken down into alone upfront and as a partner). My feeling would be that he is as dangerous from wide areas - a good number of goals come from the breakdown of play and being in the box at set pieces etc. which I don't think would be hugely impacted by the tactical position he was playing in.

[Exiled_red]

I'd be interested to see Kuyt's scoring record right or as part of the strike partnership (and that broken down into alone upfront and as a partner). My feeling would be that he is as dangerous from wide areas - a good number of goals come from the breakdown of play and being in the box at set pieces etc. which I don't think would be hugely impacted by the tactical position he was playing in.

It certainly would be interesting to see, but I've no idea where you'd find them. I think he's a decent scorer of 'scrappy goals', six yard box type goals so if think if we had decent delivery from wide areas he'd probably get more being in there. But without stats we'll never know

[squaddie]

Should have snagged Gudjohnsen.... Or at least shown some interest... Would have made this situation a lot less of a pain in the arse.

[MrsB]

I read "Should have shagged Gudjohnsen"