Class of 2005 better than class of 2010

[ntto]

Watched The Road to Istanbul on LFC TV last night and I was struck at how much our squad and tactics have changed since 2005.

What struck me even more was how much better our squad was, and arguably our 11 was better then too.

Something else struck me, we needed a result against Olympiakos and what did Rafa do? Throw on Mellor and Pongolle - how many times this season have we been crying for him to put on an extra striker - even if it is pacheco, amoo, nemeth etc

Here are the two squads from Olympiakos and Leverkeusen respectively:

Kirkland, Finnan, Carragher, Hyypia, Traore, Nunez, Alonso, Gerrard, Riise, Kewell, Baros.
Subs: Dudek, Henchoz, Diao, Josemi, Sinama Pongolle, Warnock, Mellor.

Jerzy Dudek; 3-Steve Finnan, 4-Sami Hyypia, 23-Jamie Carragher, 28-Stephen Warnock; 6-John Arne Riise, 8-Steven Gerrard, 16-Dietmar Hamann, 25-Igor Biscan, 10-Luis Garcia; 5-Milan Baros
Subs: Carson, Smicer, Le Tallec, Nunez, Raven, Welsh, Potter

If we compare positions (assuming 4-2-3-1):

GK - Rafa has improved this position as Reina is far superior than both Kirkland and Dudek
RB - I'd say Finnan in 2005 is a better player than Johnson in 2010. He might not be as quick but he's a better defender and a far better crosser of the ball
CB - Carragher (as before)
CB - Hyypia - better defender in 2005 than Agger in 2010? Yep, I'd think so
LB - 2005 saw us with both Traore and Warnock, and watching the games last night they were far better defenders than Aurelio and Insua are now. Possibly not as good going forward / passing. Dont forget in 2005 we also had riise who was playing midfield.

DM - Here is where it gets interesting. In 2010 we mainly have Mascherano and Lucas playing DM with occasionally Gerrard and Aqualini playing there. Compare that to 2005 when we had Alonso and Gerrard mainly filling the two slots, with Hamann and Biscan as backup. I'd say Hamann and Biscan (our backup midfielders) are both superior players to Lucas. While they might not have the energy and tackling of Mash - Hamann had a far better shot and pass

LM - 2005 Riise / Kewell while 2010 its Babel / Reira. Jury out here I suppost. While Riise was solid and had a cracking left foot, he lacked pace and creativity. Reira gives us natural width and babel natural pace. Think I'd still perfer riise though.

RM - 2005 it was Nunez and Gerrard (against leverkusen) with Garcia playing there at times too. Compare that with Maxi and Kuyt in 2010. Gerrard best option out of that list, but it's not a strength area for us. I guess Garcia is on a par with Kuyt, kuyt getting the nod defensively with Garcia getting the nod going forward.

AM - Kewll / Garcia in these two games against Gerrard (our only real option in 2010). Trade off between having Gerrard in CM and being better in that department. Think I'd rather have hin in CM

CF - Baros or Torres. No contest.

All in all I can only really see Reina and Torres come in and improve the team from 2005 - and thats poor. Very poor.

If you look at the team lists and see who in the two teams Rafa signed:
Nunez, Alonso, Josemi only Alonso was a good signing.

Compare that with the 2010 squad (last home game of season)

Reina, Mascherano, Kyrgiakos, Carragher, Agger, Gerrard, Lucas, Maxi, Aquilani, Benayoun, Kuyt.
Subs: Cavalieri, Babel, Ngog, Degen, El Zhar, Ayala, Pacheco.

Rafas signings (excluding kids and reserve keeper): Reina, Mascherano, Kyrgiakos, Agger, Lucas, Maxi, Aquilani, Benayoun, Kuyt.
Subs: Babel, Ngog, Degen

For me only the two in bold have improved us from 2005 (and obviously add Torres to that list).

I think thats pretty shocking.

What do people think?

[kev776]

I think you completely confused me with all the mix and match you have done.

The 2005 team was ****e. Baros, Kewell, Nunez, Traore, Igor, Kirkland etc, certainly no better than today.

[Shaggy]

Not having that at all, we're miles better now.

[elrichio86]

Hamann and Biscan (our backup midfielders) are both superior players to Lucas

I think thats a very harsh assessment of the squads. Yes, there are some area's that haven't improved (LB and LM most notably), but most positions are significantly better IMO.

Mascherano has definately improved the first team, and not just because it has free'd up Gerrard to move further forwards. Also Gerrard isn't our only option for AM this season - surely that's Benayouns ideal position? In which case Gerrard / Benayoun is a big improvement over Kewell / Garcia.

RM has improved - Kuyt / Maxi or Garcia / Nunez is a no-brainer to me.

Johnson is a different sort of full back to Finnan, and I think has been unfortunate to join us during such a slump in form. I think if you'd added him to a team on form he would have improved our attacking options dramatically. If our CB's are more consistent next year, I think we'll see big things from him.

[Kenneth]

Not having that at all, we're miles better now.

I think we've covered this before, but I really don't think Rafa's team today is much better than the team he took over, if at all.

[ntto]

I think you completely confused me with all the mix and match you have done.

The 2005 team was ****e. Baros, Kewell, Nunez, Traore, Igor, Kirkland etc, certainly no better than today.

Thats kind of my point - we havent improved. Our players today are no better than what we had in 2005

For every Baros, Kewell, Traore, Biscan and Kirkland we have players bought for the first team today who are no better (and bought at a higher price)

[kingfunk]

I think we've covered this before, but I really don't think Rafa's team today is much better than the team he took over, if at all.

We have a couple better individuals but not a better team.

[kingfunk]

I think we've covered this before, but I really don't think Rafa's team today is much better than the team he took over, if at all.

We have a couple better individuals but the team is not much better, maybe worse.

[The Birdman]

Absolute rubbish. Reina, Johnson, Agger, Mascherano, Kuyt and Torres would walk into the 2005 team. Add in Gerrard and Carragher and the only positions up for a slight debate using the 4-2-3-1 system would be -
LB (but don't go kidding yourself that Riise was any good, Warnock was young, inexperienced and inconsistant and Traore was well Traore) Aurelio of last season would walk into the combined team but generally we've been below average at left back for a few years now.
Hamman alongside Mascher in the DM role
Garcia/Kewell to play from the left.

Hyppia was an absolute colossus for us for many years and I can see an arguement for him ahead of Agger but the rest is just another disguised dig at Rafa and the current squad.

[Kenneth]

Absolute rubbish. Reina, Johnson, Agger, Mascherano, Kuyt and Torres would walk into the 2005 team. Add in Gerrard and Carragher and the only positions up for a slight debate using the 4-2-3-1 system would be -
LB (but don't go kidding yourself that Riise was any good, Warnock was young, inexperienced and inconsistant and Traore was well Traore) Aurelio of last season would walk into the combined team but generally we've been below average at left back for a few years now.
Hamman alongside Mascher in the DM role
Garcia/Kewell to play from the left.

Hyppia was an absolute colossus for us for many years and I can see an arguement for him ahead of Agger but the rest is just another disguised dig at Rafa and the current squad.

It really isn't.

Reina, yes. Back four of Finnan, Hyypia, Carra and Riise was better than our current back four. Hamman was as good as Mascherano imo. Kewell, although injured a lot, was as good as anything we have today. If you include Owen, out striking options were better then than now, although we obviously have Torres who when fit and rolling is much better. Overall, there's not too much in it in terms of 1st XI. We have better backup now though on the whole.

[zimbo]

Individually, the current squad is generally of a higher quality than in 2005. But we've rarely shown the kind of fight, togetherness and character that typified the Champions League run, and that, for me, is the major difference. However, it's worth remembering that many of the league performances in 04/05 were just as abject as the ones we've seen this season.

[ashey]

Why would you include Owen?

[Exiled_red]

Individually, the current squad is generally of a higher quality than in 2005. But we've rarely shown the kind of fight, togetherness and character that typified the Champions League run, and that, for me, is the major difference. However, it's worth remembering that many of the league performances in 04/05 were just as abject as the ones we've seen this season.

Spot on.

In my mind the differece in ability is clear, the problem is there is something missing in the current squad with regards mentality or attitude. Last season (08/09) we had an amazing team spirit and desire and belief which we seem to have lost. Personally I think this has alot to go with the loss of big Sami. He had experience and played with a smile on his face, I think this is a useful attribute and contrasts somewhat with the approach of our current experienced players (Gerrard and Carragher) who to put it bluntly like a good moan, I think this could have a negative effect on some players.

[Kenneth]

Why would you include Owen?

Because he was at Liverpool when Rafa arrived.

[the rev leeroy brown]

It really isn't.

Reina, yes. Back four of Finnan, Hyypia, Carra and Riise was better than our current back four. Hamman was as good as Mascherano imo. Kewell, although injured a lot, was as good as anything we have today. If you include Owen, out striking options were better then than now, although we obviously have Torres who when fit and rolling is much better. Overall, there's not too much in it in terms of 1st XI. We have better backup now though on the whole.

i agreed with most of the original post except the biscan better than lucas psih

to be fair, reina is far better than dudek or kirkland
finnan was a better defender in 2005 than johnson is now
carra and hyypia in 2005 were better than carra and agger are now
riise is better than what we have now but traore was miles worse

kewell never really got going due to injury so i'd say babel / riera are better ( although a fit kewell ( mething we never had) is better than both )
hamman was as good as mash but had better distribution
ste and alonso are better than mash / lucas

torres is head and shoulders better than what we had but baros / cisse are both better than ngog - so was pongolle though.

i'd say we have improved some positions but have gone back in others. is the squad really any better or worse than back in 2005........i'd say the answer is that it's too close to call.