Our philosophy

[Roboklopp]

Exactly

Ah yes, like the "team of winners" Houllier left...

[Mattshark]

Matty quote me where i said Cuper bought those players and get back to me, i'll be here with my tea and ginger biscuits.

You said it was Cuper's team that Rafa won with. I pointed out it wasn't since Cuper never bought the team, that was the job of the director of football.

You were wrong and you aren't even able to understand why.

[kris90210]

I think the first questions are what scope we want our philosophy to have and do we feel we need a single figurehead (such as Cruyff at Barcelona) to define and expound it.

The problems for replicating a root to branch approach similar to that employed at Barcelona are manifold. Firstly changes at youth level take a long time to work their way through - in Spain arguably 20 years or more, at Arsenal at least 10 years went by before Wenger started generating the likes of Wilshere and notable underage teams himself.

We will have to make hard decisions about giving youth a chance against maximising chances of winning.

Personally I think we do need someone with a vision and the drive to see it through. The vision, obviously, has to be about producing winning football. I'm not sure there is one brand that satisfies this criteria but the reactive, standing in three neat lines approach of Roy is certainly not what is required.

Appointing Comolli is an interesting and odd step at this point. If the idea is that he does fit well with Roy then we are ****ed and might as well right the next few years of completely.

Good post. The comparison with Arsenal is interesting. Even though it's taken Wenger a long time for him to start producing his very own youngsters, if you'd asked someone 5 years ago what an Arsenal player looked like, he'd be a technically gifted player. Players like Nasri, Rosicky, Arshavin. You just know an Arsenal player whether he plays for them or not.

I think we should look at defining a playing style and bring in a manager who will compliment that. And subsequently bring in the right players to play that way. This would filter down to the youth setup as well.

What system should that be? In my opinion, the emphasis should be an expansive attacking game. Pressing hard when we concede possession. Technical players who can pass the ball (similar to Arsenal) should be a minimum requirment. But it's imperative that there is a spine of steel running through the side - this is what Arsenal have been missing since they lost Viera.

No doubt it's a long term process, but it has already begun and the next - and most important step - is appointing the right manager who will put this into practice.

[danperkins]

Wrong. It was Valencia's team, it ceased to be Cuper's when he left. He never built it, he never bought it.


Well Daniel, unlucky.

so then what are managers in Spain for then? So eh where is that quote form me saying Cuper bought them, didn't read it properly did you Matty?

So you think even though Cuper got Valencia to "2" consecutive Champs League finals, he deserves no plaudits? Ignorant and stupid comments.

So what about Guardiola, does he deserve no credit either? The way Barca play football and the top players where there before he came in, so is he irrelevant?

Digging yourself ito a hole and purposes avoiding the main point which is: Rafa inherited a class side, and that exact same team won the league in Rafa's first year.

Hmmm so does that mean that because Rafa never built or bought the team, so he deserve no credit either? well done friend

P.S. Those are the facts, you have zero legs to stand on so lets knock this back and fourth on the head before it escalates.

[Mattshark]

so then what are managers in Spain for then? So eh where is that quote form me saying Cuper bought them, didn't read it properly did you Matty?

So you think even though Cuper got Valencia to "2" consecutive Champs League finals, he deserves no plaudits? Ignorant and stupid comments.

So what about Guardiola, does he deserve no credit either? The way Barca play football and the top players where there before he came in, so is he irrelevant?

Digging yourself ito a hole and purposes avoiding the main point which is: Rafa inherited a class side, and that exact same team won the league in Rafa's first year.

Hmmm so does that mean that Rafa never built or bought the team, so he deserve no credit either? well done friend

Are you kidding me? Seriously are you really this clueless?

No Rafa didn't buy the players at Valencia either.

Yes Cuper deserves credit for Valencia's cl runs (not sure where I said he shouldn't but never mind), no he doesn't deserve any for the Rafa's championships. No Cuper did not build the team, it ceased to Cuper's team when he left. Giving credit to Cuper for Rafa's team winning the league is thick and ignorant.

I am not avoiding any point, I was merely pointing out you consistent error that you use as a petty dig, and as usual for you, you are wrong.

[kris90210]

so then what are managers in Spain for then? So eh where is that quote form me saying Cuper bought them, didn't read it properly did you Matty?

So you think even though Cuper got Valencia to "2" consecutive Champs League finals, he deserves no plaudits? Ignorant and stupid comments.

So what about Guardiola, does he deserve no credit either? The way Barca play football and the top players where there before he came in, so is he irrelevant?

Digging yourself ito a hole and purposes avoiding the main point which is: Rafa inherited a class side, and that exact same team won the league in Rafa's first year.

Hmmm so does that mean that because Rafa never built or bought the team, so he deserve no credit either? well done friend

P.S. Those are the facts, you have zero legs to stand on so lets knock this back and fourth on the head before it escalates.

I'd never describe the side Rafa inherited as 'class.' It was a good premiership side, with a sprinkling of class players (Hyypia, Carragher, Hamann and Gerrard).

[danperkins]

Are you kidding me? Seriously are you really this clueless?

No Rafa didn't buy the players at Valencia either.

Yes Cuper deserves credit for Valencia's cl runs, no he doesn't deserve any for the Rafa's championships. No Cuper did not build the team, it ceased to Cuper's team when he left. Giving credit to Cuper for Rafa's team winning the league is thick and ignorant.

I am not avoiding any point, I was merely pointing out you consistent error that you use as a petty dig, and as usual for you, you are wrong.

So what the point i having football managers in Spain so? What you think Cuper just sat there with his finger up his hole in his years at Valencia? If thats the case why didn't they just get a chimpanzee and stick him in the dug out so, get a nice little chimp suit fitted for him? Did you ever hear players saying managers made them better players? Hmm Carra about Houllier, do people on here not say Rafa made Gerrard a better player? Managers do do some things from tiem to time Matt believe or not.

So in your opinion Rafa deserves no credit either ? And neither does any of the managers in the Primera League as they manage players according to you?

[danperkins]

I'd never describe the side Rafa inherited as 'class.' It was a good premiership side, with a sprinkling of class players (Hyypia, Carragher, Hamann and Gerrard).

i wasn't referring to you mate

[CJ]

dan cuper didnt build a team he coached it.

so once he stopped coaching it it stopped being his side. if he had built it i may be able to see your point but he didnt build it.

it became Rafas team once he started coaching it.

[Mattshark]

So what the point i having football managers in Spain so? What you think Cuper just sat there with his finger up his hole in his years at Valencia? If thats the case why didn't they just get a chimpanzee and stick him in the dug out so, get a nice little chimp suit fitted for him?

So in your opinion Rafa deserves no credit either ? And neither does any of the managers in the Primera League?



Give a rest Matty

You didn't know that managers don't control transfers in Europe, seriously?

Are you simple? Did you even read what I said? They deserve credit for their achievements, to credit a predecessor for their successors achievements is ignorant. Oh and that doesn't change even if a manager makes them a better player. Not that its relevant or anything.

Read, think, learn. Give it a try for once.

[Mattshark]

dan cuper didnt build a team he coached it.

so once he stopped coaching it it stopped being his side. if he had built it i may be able to see your point but he didnt build it.

it became Rafas team once he started coaching it.

I don't get how he doesn't understand this point.

[CJ]

I don't get how he doesn't understand this point.

its not even that nuanced an argument is it.

[Mattshark]

its not even that nuanced an argument is it.

Nope, it is pretty clear cut.

[CJ]

anyway lets get back to our philosophy.

i do agree that Rafa seems to fit what we want ie press hard up the pitch etc.

however he has weaknesess that may not fit ie there seems to be a time limit on how long players will play for him and would he buy in to the new structure here?

anyway there are loads of other threads where that argument can be, this isnt a who should be our manager but what should our on the pitch philosophy be and then how do we support that off the pitch and make sure it continues despite changes in manger and personnel .

[danperkins]

You didn't know that managers don't control transfers in Europe, seriously?

Are you simple? Did you even read what I said? They deserve credit for their achievements, to credit a predecessor for their successors achievements is ignorant. Oh and that doesn't change even if a manager makes them a better player. Not that its relevant or anything.

Read, think, learn. Give it a try for once.

jesus christ, that is a case in many clubs, exception are Barcelona under Guardiola. And do you think that Mourinho would come into Madrid on the basis that he had **** all say on what players are coming and going? Not a chance in the world.

So by your argument, Cuper had nothing got to do with building a successful team at Valencia? You and i will never know if he had any say in "transfers", regardless of what the general way football is run over in Spain.

I've had this exact argument before, people say building is buying? So that means Guardiola hasn't built **** all at Barca? Definitions may differ. My definition in football of building a squad, is getting the team to play the way you want it and building a continuity and unity in that team.

So you focus on the word "built", you can mull over that, and i'll go back to the main point which was "Rafa inherited a world class team". Did he inherit it from Cuper who was the previous manager and managed to get the 2 consecutive champs league "Or" did he inherit the squad from the director of football? Our opinions may differ on that point, but Rafa still inherited a world class team. That is a fact whatever way you want to try spin the details.

P.S. Lets get back to the thread