Our philosophy

[Arn]

You didn't know that managers don't control transfers in Europe, seriously?

Are you simple? Did you even read what I said? They deserve credit for their achievements, to credit a predecessor for their successors achievements is ignorant. Oh and that doesn't change even if a manager makes them a better player. Not that its relevant or anything.

Read, think, learn. Give it a try for once.

He doesn't even know why Rafa left Valencia in the first place. The reason was that he didn't get the chance to build his team and instead the President decided to cash in and sell players not replacing them. He was promised a player and he the President changed his mind and bought the famous lamp instead.

Rafa also made them into a league winning team and that is totally different than going to two CL finals. To beat both Barcelona and Real two seasons out of three was just incredible and something no other manager been able to do in a loooooooooong time. Cuper wasn't even close to do that.

[dww]

Good post. The comparison with Arsenal is interesting. Even though it's taken Wenger a long time for him to start producing his very own youngsters, if you'd asked someone 5 years ago what an Arsenal player looked like, he'd be a technically gifted player. Players like Nasri, Rosicky, Arshavin. You just know an Arsenal player whether he plays for them or not.

I think we should look at defining a playing style and bring in a manager who will compliment that. And subsequently bring in the right players to play that way. This would filter down to the youth setup as well.

What system should that be? In my opinion, the emphasis should be an expansive attacking game. Pressing hard when we concede possession. Technical players who can pass the ball (similar to Arsenal) should be a minimum requirment. But it's imperative that there is a spine of steel running through the side - this is what Arsenal have been missing since they lost Viera.

No doubt it's a long term process, but it has already begun and the next - and most important step - is appointing the right manager who will put this into practice.

I largely agree with your idea of what we should look for in terms of a style of play.

The question is though how does one get the steely spine? I actually think Wenger was lucky about his timing of arrival - when he came the PL was way behind the continent and his modern ideas plus a decent spine to inherit made it comparatively easy to have success on a moderate budget.

I think we have missed the ideal time to build which was a couple of years ago - we have a core of good players and experienced leaders. Now that Carragher and Gerrard are perhaps past their peaks and Alonso, Mascherano and Hyypia are all gone we need to discover/create a new spine for the future.

The point you make about the Arsenal style of player is a good one. I would ad though that you have to add two other defining qualities - average in the air and a lack of cycnicism (I mean tactically but arguably you could say in terms of willingness to deliberately bend rule to win). I think the aestheticism of Wenger costs them and with the league as competitive as it is I think we need to be careful to avoid extending the period of time it takes to bed in our new way of doing things by aiming for perfection from the start.

I also think the lack of a B team in a hard league makes it difficult to judge and harden young players. I think we need to look at how we plan to do this. Can we make links with other teams or somehow improve our reserve schedule to help?

[Craig_H]

Oh good, this thread has completely turned into a rafa thread....

[danperkins]

The thing about our footballing philosophy is that, Roy is here and ultimately he controls the way we play. He is building things the way he wants and trying to get the players to play his way.

I watch LFC and i lose the will to live. Win some, lose some, draw some. Even when we win its not inspiring and its not exciting. Its turgid and its some what lucky if we do win. We are predictable and one dimensional. There is zero spontaneity or creativity in the way we play, it seems every ounce of fluid football has been sucked out of us. Under Rafa for the most part we played effective football, not beautiful attacking,free flowing football but effective, IMO people will accept this if the team is winning.

I'm struggling to watch our games these days, and just hoping that something drastic happens in January, preferably without Roy at the helm. But there seems to be no end in sight to this debacle.

[Roboklopp]

As I said, if DOF is the way to go, I need a lot of convincing that Comoli is the right man at the right time. I'd love to be persuaded obviously.

I worry though that NESV are trying to force a US-style moneyball style straightjacket onto LFC, which just might not be appropriate. I know there are strong precedents in Europe, just it's a huge call and one that will derail us for years should we get it wrong.

[red g]

He doesn't even know why Rafa left Valencia in the first place. The reason was that he didn't get the chance to build his team and instead the President decided to cash in and sell players not replacing them. He was promised a player and he the President changed his mind and bought the famous lamp instead.

Rafa also made them into a league winning team and that is totally different than going to two CL finals. To beat both Barcelona and Real two seasons out of three was just incredible and something no other manager been able to do in a loooooooooong time. Cuper wasn't even close to do that.

I think Rafa was lucky then as I am sure Barcelona were in a period of flux and MAdrid were just starting out with their Galactico's. Just like i think he was unlucky to come up against Chelsea in the height of there powers here.

[Arn]

Rafa had his philosophy in place very quickly at Valencia and he was on the way to do the same here but it takes time. Everyone knew and talked about the Valencia way and how great football they play.

Player after player at Valencia have said after Rafa left that they miss his philosophy and in the end it cost the President his job. They are now slowly on the way back because the manager have more or less copied Rafa's philosophy.

If you want to have something that points to this is Liverpool then it will take time to build it.

Both Cuper and Rafa are the same type of managers. That is why it didn't take that long time for Rafa to continue that work and get the philosophy in place when he got the job after Cuper.

[Roboklopp]

I think everyone can agree that The Bodge is a spanner in the works of any philosophy that encourages progressive, varied and effective football with a winning mentality. I just don't see how the 2 things can co-exist.

[Roboklopp]

Arn, I adore Rafa, but please can we stop talking about him ALL the time?

[kris90210]

I largely agree with your idea of what we should look for in terms of a style of play.

The question is though how does one get the steely spine? I actually think Wenger was lucky about his timing of arrival - when he came the PL was way behind the continent and his modern ideas plus a decent spine to inherit made it comparatively easy to have success on a moderate budget.

I think we have missed the ideal time to build which was a couple of years ago - we have a core of good players and experienced leaders. Now that Carragher and Gerrard are perhaps past their peaks and Alonso, Mascherano and Hyypia are all gone we need to discover/create a new spine for the future.

The point you make about the Arsenal style of player is a good one. I would ad though that you have to add two other defining qualities - average in the air and a lack of cycnicism (I mean tactically but arguably you could say in terms of willingness to deliberately bend rule to win). I think the aestheticism of Wenger costs them and with the league as competitive as it is I think we need to be careful to avoid extending the period of time it takes to bed in our new way of doing things by aiming for perfection from the start.

I also think the lack of a B team in a hard league makes it difficult to judge and harden young players. I think we need to look at how we plan to do this. Can we make links with other teams or somehow improve our reserve schedule to help?

Cheers for th reply mate - good reading. How does a team acquire a steely spine? Well I guess you have to be prepared to make allowances in terms of ability in a couple of key positions. Viera was not a run of the mill Arsenal player, and it was for that reason he was one of their most important players (if not their most important). He was willing to mix it up with the Keane's of the league and do the dirty work which let the rest of them play their game. His influence on that team cannot be overstated.

While being technically gifted should be a minimum requirement, in a couple of positions this should come second to having grit, detemination, and character. Defensive midfield and center back are the two that spring to mind.

I agree with you on the timing of Arsene coming to Arsenal. The premiership was ripe for the taking for someone like Wenger.

In terms of blooding our youngsters, I think all the top sides struggle to do this. Fergie is a bit of a master at it though fair play to him. Even the youngsters that don't make it seem to get sold for a good profit. I think his secret is he uses his contacts within the premiership to get his youngsters loan moves to other premiership clubs, while most of ours will go to Championship clubs or lower.

We did miss a golden opportunity to build on the team we had 2-3 years ago. Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano in the middle. Torres up front, Reina in goal. Arguably the best spine in the world. We just couldn't add that last couple of pieces to the jigsaw.

[fred_plasticine]

As I said, if DOF is the way to go, I need a lot of convincing that Comoli is the right man at the right time. I'd love to be persuaded obviously.

I worry though that NESV are trying to force a US-style moneyball style straightjacket onto LFC, which just might not be appropriate. I know there are strong precedents in Europe, just it's a huge call and one that will derail us for years should we get it wrong.

if everything from style of play right to purchases is down to one man and one man only than you are well and truly ****ed if he doesn't excel on all levels. we above all should know just that.
a model where the overall responsibilty is shared by several individuals who are responsible of their "departments" is in my eyes preferable. key decisions don't rest on one person's shoulders alone.
it might be problematic as with any team if they fail to work together. but it's less problematic than searching for the elusive managing genius.

[Leyton388]

How about

"Anyone but Roy"

[Muddled]

I think Rafa was lucky then as I am sure Barcelona were in a period of flux and MAdrid were just starting out with their Galactico's. Just like i think he was unlucky to come up against Chelsea in the height of there powers here.

The same 'starting out' Real Madrid that won the title the season before - and inbetween - Valencia's two titles; or the Barcelona team in a state of flux that won it the season before Real Madrid's first title mentioned above, or the season after Valenica's last title?

You're just belittling Rafa and what was a grand achievement.

[DannyMan2006]

On Rafa v Cuper.

When Rafa took over Valencia had just sold their best player and one who made their team tick - Mendieta. The whole Cuper side was based around him and losing him was a massive blow.

So for Rafa to come in and blow what Cuper did out of the water on the domestic front was a massive achievement on his part. It would have been like someone getting the LFC job after we finished second, losing Alonso and then doing far better than Rafa ever did. Nigh on impossible.

What Rafa did at Valencia was incredible.

[Leyton388]

Rafa was fighting a losing battle at LFC for 3 years and last season was terrible. However Rafa deserves credit for what he did here as the greatest thing he achieved at LFC was giving us fans our pride back.