Remember when God re-signed

[Reece]

It's almost fascist-like how the overwhelming pro-Rafa majority here means people can basically insult and question the sanity or motives of any poster who dares express an anti-Rafa opinion. I agree with every single word Charly said in that post, it is clearly not a wind-up, it is a sane, non-rose-tinted view of Rafa's last season at our club, which to my mind was no less a crime against football than what Hodgson is currently inflicting on us. If Rafa comes back, with his ultra-defensive football, **** signings, crap man-management skills and crazy substitutions then I for one will have to turn away from football until he's gone again. There, I've said it, now throw as many accusations of retardedness, WUM-ery or whatever the **** you want to throw my way. This place has become an unenjoyable zoo full of over-aggressive trigger-happy idiots of late, so I expect nothing less.

I disagree with your view on Rafa , but I completely agree with the bit in bold. The whole football forum has become completely unenjoyable, filled with the same small group of posters going round and round in circles with tired, pedantic debates and attacking posters personally rather than attempting to entertain reasoned debates.

Too many people who think this place is their own personal playground where they can bore the **** out of everyone else.

Ahhhh that feels better.

Merry Christmas everyone!

[scully]

He's made up a load of guff to support his opinion, scully. Like I said in a more recent post, he's entitled to his opinion and that's not the problem.

He's completely ignored the ownership situation, and blamed Rafa for everything last season. The rot set in from the top.

And to say Rafa quit of his own accord? Do you agree with that, as well?

He's one of us mate, a red through and through. Mutual consent my arse.

I very much doubt he is 100% anti-Rafa and 100% "not Hicks and Gillette's fault". However, I do feel a fair few people here are of the opposite black-and-white view, i.e. it was 100% H&G's fault, none of it was Saint Rafa's. Rafa dictated the **** football that was played, Rafa played the same **** players again and again, failed to motivate his team to mount anything even resembling a title challenge. He was the manager and he failed to manage, he deserved to go. Therefore no, I don't agree that Rafa left of his own accord but don't see anything wrong in that. If I'd been on our board I'd have sacked him.

I really don't care that he's a red through and through and am sick of this sentimentality clouding people's judgements. Sammy Lee is a red through and through but no way in hell would I trust him as manager of our club. His heart may be in the right place, but his head isn't.

So why are you here now then?

(a) Roy will be gone soon, Rafa won't be back, so the football-related part of this site may be pleasant to visit again. (b) I'm currently here for the non-football-related parts of this site, which are frequented by people who don't rip each other's heads off no matter what the disagreement.

[Rowan]

I disagree with your view on Rafa , but I completely agree with the bit in bold. The whole football forum has become completely unenjoyable, filled with the same small group of posters going round and round in circles with tired, pedantic debates and attacking posters personally rather than attempting to entertain reasoned debates.

Too many people who think this place is their own personal playground where they can bore the **** out of everyone else.

Ahhhh that feels better.

Merry Christmas everyone!

I agree Reece, I ventured out of the WAYLTATM thread straight into a ****ing zoo. I'm a hardened, brave northern mutha****er so don't take it too personally when someone tells me I don't know what I'm talking about but half of the time it's just pages of petty spamming.

I vote you earn your mod stripes and go ban ****ing crazy. I'll keep a running total on who gets hit in the cull and then we can toast your success at the Sufjan gig. You know it's the right thing to do.

So, go Reece, and Merry Christmas

[Mattshark]

I very much doubt he is 100% anti-Rafa and 100% "not Hicks and Gillette's fault". However, I do feel a fair few people here are of the opposite black-and-white view, i.e. it was 100% H&G's fault, none of it was Saint Rafa's. Rafa dictated the **** football that was played, Rafa played the same **** players again and again, failed to motivate his team to mount anything even resembling a title challenge. He was the manager and he failed to manage, he deserved to go. Therefore no, I don't agree that Rafa left of his own accord but don't see anything wrong in that. If I'd been on our board I'd have sacked him.

I really don't care that he's a red through and through and am sick of this sentimentality clouding people's judgements. Sammy Lee is a red through and through but no way in hell would I trust him as manager of our club. His heart may be in the right place, but his head isn't.



(a) Roy will be gone soon, Rafa won't be back, so the football-related part of this site may be pleasant to visit again. (b) I'm currently here for the non-football-related parts of this site, which are frequented by people who don't rip each other's heads off no matter what the disagreement.

I don't think anyone genuinely things it is completely the fault of either Rafa or H&G, however, I find it hard to think anyone could believe that H&G's actions were not the biggest factor in what happened.
I also think it is unfair to say Rafa failed. One bad season is not failing, it is just that, one bad season. You can't turn a side into the no.1 ranked team in Europe and produce the first title challenge in 2 decades and be a failure. One bad season doesn't change that.
Your whole argument seems based on one season, one were we have had the most difficult behind the scenes problems we have ever had. He didn't handle it well, but it is noway near as bad as you have made out.

To compare Sammy Lee to Rafa is pointless, they are a million miles apart in terms of managerial achievement.

There is nothing pleasant about Liverpool full stop with Roy around.

You also should accept that Rafa is still held in very high regard by the majority of Liverpool fans, most feeling that he was treated unfairly last season, there is a lot of anger at this and occasionally it gets misdirected, especially while we have become worse than we have been since the 50's.

[little dave hedgehog]

I disagree with your view on Rafa , but I completely agree with the bit in bold. The whole football forum has become completely unenjoyable, filled with the same small group of posters going round and round in circles with tired, pedantic debates and attacking posters personally rather than attempting to entertain reasoned debates.

Too many people who think this place is their own personal playground where they can bore the **** out of everyone else.

Ahhhh that feels better.

Merry Christmas everyone!

we love our reggie.

[scully]

I don't think anyone genuinely things it is completely the fault of either Rafa or H&G, however, I find it hard to think anyone could believe that H&G's actions were not the biggest factor in what happened.
I also think it is unfair to say Rafa failed. One bad season is not failing, it is just that, one bad season. You can't turn a side into the no.1 ranked team in Europe and produce the first title challenge in 2 decades and be a failure. One bad season doesn't change that.
Your whole argument seems based on one season, one were we have had the most difficult behind the scenes problems we have ever had. He didn't handle it well, but it is noway near as bad as you have made out.

To compare Sammy Lee to Rafa is pointless, they are a million miles apart in terms of managerial achievement.

There is nothing pleasant about Liverpool full stop with Roy around.

You also should accept that Rafa is still held in very high regard by the majority of Liverpool fans, most feeling that he was treated unfairly last season, there is a lot of anger at this and occasionally it gets misdirected, especially while we have become worse than we have been since the 50's.

There wasn't a single season with Rafa in charge that didn't exasperate me as far as Rafa's attitude towards the Premiership was concerned, and yes, I include the 2008-2009 season in that. We may have been the most feared in Europe, but Rafa never seemed to understand the Premiership and often seemed to sacrifice it in favour of European glory. He'd have his team going all out against the 'big 3' but then stupidly underestimate the likes of Stoke, Middlesborough, Crystal ****ing Palace et al. I stated this repeatedly during last season when people like yourself endlessly repeated the tired old "one bad season" argument. We did not have a single consistent season under Rafa, and even the 2008-2009 season was one characterised by several ultra-defensive displays where the team was set up to not lose rather than to actually win. The last 3 months of that season were great, no one can deny that, but Rafa didn't grasp that to win the title you have to go for the jugular of every single game.

As for H&G, can you actually explain how their off-field behaviour determined the minutiae of Rafa's on-field match tactics? Every time Rafa, for instance, took off a striker when we were desperately needed to get a goal - was that H&G's fault? The constant playing of underperforming players and resting of in-form players - was that their fault? Anyone who threatened to score a hat trick getting taken off for a defensive player - was that their fault? The alienation of Alonso and consequent loss of this crucial player - was that their fault? The 'replacement' of Alonso with a crocked Italian for £20M - was that their fault?

I brought up Sammy Lee because so many people act as if referring to Rafa as red through and through wins them the argument. Stop pretending to think I intended otherwise.

[Mattshark]

I disagree Scully. I really don't want to get into the details again.

You made the comparison mate, I was just pointing out it wasn't really good one

[vlahka]

Totally agree with everything scully is saying. I'm actually in shock there arent more people here going for his throat. This place is decidedly unfriendly.

[Kenneth]

I disagree with your view on Rafa , but I completely agree with the bit in bold. The whole football forum has become completely unenjoyable, filled with the same small group of posters going round and round in circles with tired, pedantic debates and attacking posters personally rather than attempting to entertain reasoned debates.

Too many people who think this place is their own personal playground where they can bore the **** out of everyone else.

Ahhhh that feels better.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Have you been appointed EST marketing director?

[Darkon]

I disagree with your view on Rafa , but I completely agree with the bit in bold. The whole football forum has become completely unenjoyable, filled with the same small group of posters going round and round in circles with tired, pedantic debates and attacking posters personally rather than attempting to entertain reasoned debates.

Too many people who think this place is their own personal playground where they can bore the **** out of everyone else.

Ahhhh that feels better.

Merry Christmas everyone!

I still remember the couple of good weeks after the "A Plea" thread, it should really come back as a sticky in this forum - it was far more enjoyable. Now we are down to the same 4 persons debating the same issue in basically every thread again.

[Reece]

Have you been appointed EST marketing director?

Ha.

Actually, if people do take notice of what I said, then it may help encourage more people to begin/resume posting in the football forum, so yeah - a bit of marketing if you like.

[MrMichael]

I mostly agree with Scully, my opinion about Rafa is a bit less firm but still in the same ball park when all is considered..... and meanwhile I certainly agree that the approach of some people on here to debate and minority held decisions is not good in the slightest. I'm a bit sick of people having their opinions dismissed and denegrated when they are honestly held, with a reasonable (if disputed) basis, and expressed on a forum whose entire purpose is discussion.

[Charly]

I agree with every single word Charly said in that post, it is clearly not a wind-up, it is a sane, non-rose-tinted view of Rafa's last season at our club, which to my mind was no less a crime against football than what Hodgson is currently inflicting on us.

Cheers mate.

I have nothing against Rafa, when you look at his time as a whole, but he has to be judged on the last season, and the state of the squad at that time.

[scully]

I disagree Scully. I really don't want to get into the details again.

You made the comparison mate, I was just pointing out it wasn't really good one

You really must ask yourself whether or not you've understood someone's point before dismissing it as good or not good, as in this case you clearly haven't.

[Mattshark]

You really must ask yourself whether or not you've understood someone's point before dismissing it as good or not good, as in this case you clearly haven't.

I have understood mate, but you comparison is still not really a good one. No one is saying we should hire Rafa purely on the grounds of him being a fan. I get the point, I disagree on the comparison.