Liverpool owner John W Henry: Dalglish doing “very well”

[CJ]

true but you could then use the same arguement for the Bodge

looks like i was a poor second in this conclusion

Yeah, because Jose always gets what he wants eh.

Even if it means telling lies about managers in refs dressing rooms and ruining a mans career.

Woo. Hoo. Maureen,

it isnt good but it is a skill and he and the clubs he has managed have benefited from his skills. am not saying its right or what i want at LFC and my views on maureen are posted in lots of places here but he probably will be seen as a better manager when people look back why well for a number of reasons and none of them being he is a better manager

[RichC]

Not really, what reason would you have to be confident the Bodge would eventually get it right, he's won **** all.

I don't - you miss the point.

If you're going to use "taking everything into consideration" point of view the Bodge could aruge he failed at LFC for reasons other than not being good enough.

Basically you can spin that arguement to suit your needs hence it could also be a valid stance for Hodgson (obviously it's not!)

[Vermilion]

It's like saying a manager is a failure and always will be a failure at that club because he's won nothing in 7yrs.

We should have stuck by Rafa imo, and not **** on him from a great height as our board at the time did.

Although all things considered i'm happy with the King, if a little worried.

[CJ]

I think part of it though is the situations they go into. Rafa has taken on some very uphill tasks - Mourinho always goes into an established power base with money to move it forward. In general conspicuous success has been what has shielded him, as it has Fergusson.

If Rafa took an easier job the things he said would be taken in a better light and if he accepted that sometimes winning might not be possible he would be both better liked and a worse manager at the same time. I think Rafa needs a long term project and an environment where people want to build.

I think falling out with the Valencia and Liverpool boards he worked with was inevitable for any top manager. I'm not so sure about Inter but it always looked like a massive gamble.

yes i just get bored of the Rafa argument being people who are pro ignoring the negatives or people who are anti ignoring the positives

my position is that taking everything into account and acknowledging his failings and not making excuses for them he is a good manager who in many ways shouldnt have been made to leave the club.

Rafa is a whole made up of good and bad and the sooner people like arn and nige and others on the other side that i cant think of realise this and accept it in their reasonings the more intelligent the debate would become

[CJ]

It's like saying a manager is a failure and always will be a failure at that club because he's won nothing in 7yrs.

We should have stuck by Rafa imo, and not **** on him from a great height as our board at the time did.

Although all things considered i'm happy with the King, if a little worried.

yeah but the bodge can also say he failed for other reasons too which is partly true. his methods have a place and they arent at liverpool

maybe Rafas methods had no place with that inter squad?

agree on the king. i still think we should asses all our options but i dont think Rafa should come back just yet despite not wanting him to leave

[Vermilion]

yes i just get bored of the Rafa argument being people who are pro ignoring the negatives or people who are anti ignoring the positives

my position is that taking everything into account and acknowledging his failings and not making excuses for them he is a good manager who in many ways shouldnt have been made to leave the club.

Rafa is a whole made up of good and bad and the sooner people like arn and nige and others on the other side that i cant think of realise this and accept it in their reasonings the more intelligent the debate would become

Does work both ways that argument though.

edit: i see, by other side you mean those that simplify his time at Inter as a failure.

[RichC]

yes i just get bored of the Rafa argument being people who are pro ignoring the negatives or people who are anti ignoring the positives

my position is that taking everything into account and acknowledging his failings and not making excuses for them he is a good manager who in many ways shouldnt have been made to leave the club.

Rafa is a whole made up of good and bad and the sooner people like arn and nige and others on the other side that i cant think of realise this and accept it in their reasonings the more intelligent the debate would become

spot on.

It's not about being pro or anti Rafa

IMO with the owners we have now and going on what they did in January I think Rafa would have gone on to win some silverware in the next few seasons, irrelevant thought as it's likely to either be Kenny or a completely new manager come next season.

[RichC]

Are we all in a place to have a group hug now then ?

[CJ]

Does work both ways that argument though.

i said both sides

i might agree with the pro side more than the anti side but both have valid points. the problem is the myopic arguments given.

look at everything and decide also put his reign into context, also view how things may have turned out differently if had chosen different options

[Fredo]

yes i just get bored of the Rafa argument being people who are pro ignoring the negatives or people who are anti ignoring the positives

my position is that taking everything into account and acknowledging his failings and not making excuses for them he is a good manager who in many ways shouldnt have been made to leave the club.

Rafa is a whole made up of good and bad and the sooner people like arn and nige and others on the other side that i cant think of realise this and accept it in their reasonings the more intelligent the debate would become

Don't be so patronising.

Everyone is made up of good and bad. Rafa would have won us the title with any other owner, judging by how close we were under the former ones. From that standpoint alone, I think that the 'intelligent' debate should move on from being nit picky with how he fell out with the former scum owners.

It's irrelevant. What happened with Inter is something I don't really know of so I will give this period a pass.

[Vermilion]

Sorry it's not, it's not just about being pro or anti Rafa i agree, it's just what people think, some seem to assume those that back Rafa do so because they like him, rather than it actually being what they really think having thought long and hard about the subject, same go's for those that argue against his talents or lack of them, it;s just what they think, does'nt mean they hate him, although, some of the stuff i've read about him does come across as condesceding.

[Arn]

It's like saying a manager is a failure and always will be a failure at that club because he's won nothing in 7yrs.

We should have stuck by Rafa imo, and not **** on him from a great height as our board at the time did.

Although all things considered i'm happy with the King, if a little worried.

Yes, we should have stuck with him but even I think that we didn't had any other choice than to sack him after he challenged Purslow and showed that he lied about our businesses, the Benayoun deal for example.

We needed the vote from Purslow to get rid of Gillett and Hicks. Both of them simply couldn't stay.

Sacking Rafa was the key to get rid of G&H.

[Vermilion]

i said both sides

i might agree with the pro side more than the anti side but both have valid points. the problem is the myopic arguments given.

look at everything and decide also put his reign into context, also view how things may have turned out differently if had chosen different options

I know, edited my post i thought before you posted this, but somehow it got missed.

[Vermilion]

Yes, we should have stuck with him but even I think that we didn't had any other choice than to sack him after he challenged Purslow and showed that he lied about our businesses, the Benayoun deal for example.

We needed the vote from Purslow to get rid of Gillett and Hicks. Both of them simply couldn't stay.

Sacking Rafa was the key to get rid of G&H.

No way, you just hate Rafa!

Yeah i appreciate all that, and it's what irks me the most, that we got rid in reality for non footballing reasons.

[CJ]

Don't be so patronising.

Everyone is made up of good and bad. Rafa would have won us the title with any other owner, judging by how close we were under the former ones. From that standpoint alone, I think that the 'intelligent' debate should move on from being nit picky with how he fell out with the former scum owners.

It's irrelevant. What happened with Inter is something I don't really know of so I will give this period a pass.

where do i begin well lets keep it simple. had a quick look back on this thread and you seem to think pointing out the negatives about Rafa is nit picking. Some may say balanced. sorry something as easy as that is obviously patronising. If you dont want to acknowledge his failings fine but he has them and stop being a little childish when someone does acknowledge them and trying to say its patronising. of course its more intelligent to go Rafa is great and got nothing wrong, then the other side can go he was **** etc. Thats been really intelligent and has been great to read on here.

the debate some of us less myopic than yourself are having is that he has fallen out with more than one owner infact has fallen out with 3 at his last three clubs and some people (stupid i know) but form the opinion he may have handled it better and that may have benefited him and the clubs he has worked at. however your right Rafa is god Rafa is **** is a much more intelligent debate.

Sorry it's not, it's not just about being pro or anti Rafa i agree, it's just what people think, some seem to assume those that back Rafa do so because they like him, rather than it actually being what they really think having thought long and hard about the subject, same go's for those that argue against his talents or lack of them, it;s just what they think, does'nt mean they hate him, although, some of the stuff i've read about him does come across as condesceding.

i think the issue i have is just the lack of context that those who have a go at Rafa use (ie the argument about his total spend when we know he has to wheel and deal a bit and build a whole club in terms of quality or the he bought some duds, which we know all managers do and in my opinion he doesnt seem to have bought any more than other managers as he is accused of) and then on the pro rafa side mentioning his negative points is nit picking

both are valid and they form the whole picture.

Yes, we should have stuck with him but even I think that we didn't had any other choice than to sack him after he challenged Purslow and showed that he lied about our businesses, the Benayoun deal for example.

We needed the vote from Purslow to get rid of Gillett and Hicks. Both of them simply couldn't stay.

Sacking Rafa was the key to get rid of G&H.

not sure that he was the key to getting rid of g&h maybe rbs would have something to say about that or broughton