Our style of play

[gentingfrmhell]

We need a top class striker to play central, let Suarez play the role he initially did for Ajax and was doing last I watched Uruguay - basically playing on the wing in a front three.

But I've said this for a long time now and it hasn't happened. Him & Torres would have been incredible bit we never had the chance to see. I'd like to see Borini given a crack at playing central, but he's a couple of years from being of the required experience and standard to play central for a club of our stature.

We need to sell Carroll desperately and get lucky on a gamble.

Agree with the part in bold. We have not addressed our goal scoring problems. suarez can create chances on his own, but is not the most lethal of finishers and hes all we have got.

More goal threat required upfront as well as from midfield.

[Exiled_red]

We need a top class striker to play central, let Suarez play the role he initially did for Ajax and was doing last I watched Uruguay - basically playing on the wing in a front three.

But I've said this for a long time now and it hasn't happened. Him & Torres would have been incredible bit we never had the chance to see. I'd like to see Borini given a crack at playing central, but he's a couple of years from being of the required experience and standard to play central for a club of our stature.

We need to sell Carroll desperately and get lucky on a gamble.

I think that is his best position, he's not a natural finisher, and the central striker has to be someone who is a natural finisher and will convert a high percentage of the chances he gets. Suarez as good a player as he is takes far too many chances to score.

I think playing Suarez centrally stifles he because he is often going to get crowded out, if he plays in a wide area he his more likely to get more space by beating his man, and can hopefully draw defenders out to wide areas leaving space for others.

[baitman]

although it wasnt close to our first starting 11 we looked very poor yeasterday against Hearts.

surely these players have been training up on tika taka, but it wasnt in evidence

[wiw]

although it wasnt close to our first starting 11 we looked very poor yeasterday against Hearts.

surely these players have been training up on tika taka, but it wasnt in evidence

I'm only guessing but you'd think we will focus on team shape at first, particularly defensively initially. We aren't going to start playing like Barcelona overnight so we won't try to. You can clearly see there's an emphasis to keep the ball as much as possible and take control of the game, which we've done reasonably well, but not translated the possession into consistent chances.

I think once the shape / understanding becomes more engrained and almost second nature, we'll see the players start to free their minds a bit and concentrate fully on their movement and passing with the ball and we should start to see improvements, especially with our full strength team out. Allen and Lucas should give us the perfect platform to build from

[yamiedo]

Was discussing this in the Sahin thread and somebody advised to be posting it in this one.


A 4-3-1-2 or 4-1-2-1-2 would be interesting if Sahin Joined

---------------Reina--------------

Johnson---Skrtel---Agger---Enrique

---------------Lucas--------------

----------Allen------Sahin---------

--------------Gerrard-------------

--------Suarez------Borini---------


I like this line-up and as Baitman suggested obviously the full-backs would be playing more like wing-backs getting forward. Doubts as to whether Rodgers would use it though because of his love of wingers.

[baitman]

A 4-3-1-2 or 4-1-2-1-2 would be interesting if Sahin Joined

---------------Reina--------------

Johnson---Skrtel---Agger---Enrique

---------------Lucas--------------

----------Allen------Sahin---------

--------------Gerrard-------------

--------Suarez------Borini---------


Although I really can't see it happening as I believe Rodgers loves his wingers.
I'd still prefer he utilizes the best players in our squad though and I believe this
is the strongest line-up.

he likes the full backs to get forward, so although he will say 433, i think the full backs will step up a bit so its more like...

---------------Reina--------------

---------Skrtel-------Agger-------

Johnson-------Lucas-------Enrique

----------Allen------Sahin---------

--------------Gerrard-------------

--------Suarez------Borini---------

[baitman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kris90210
I know he likes his wingers, but the weird thing is Borini is no winger, and neither is Gerrard (I can't see how we fit Sahin, Allen, Lucas and Gerrard into 4-3-3 without Stevie playing wide). For someone who loves wingers so much, I find it strange that we've only really signed one - and that's a bit of a punt as well.
I guess time will tell!


i think he prefers his wingers to be more like inside forwards, so their work is nearer the box and closer to other team mates for support, rather than dragging play out wide and then having no one available for a pass if we risk losing possession. this means that any one of three, often supported by others, will be getting in to the box.

[Catrin]

Comparing Swansea against West Ham and us against Hearts and West Brom, I think the biggest difference is the movement. When we try to keep the ball we get closed down too easily because the man on the ball doesn't have enough options. Against Hearts too often Sterling had to take on the defender because he didn't have an out ball, which is tough for a young player. For Lucas and Allen it is already automatic for them to move in support of the player on the ball. The others haven't got that yet. There were a few times against Hearts where Shelvey, Adam and Henderson would pass to a teammate then momentarily switch off and they would be standing still for a second or two.

[Frenchie]

Comparing Swansea against West Ham and us against Hearts and West Brom, I think the biggest difference is the movement. When we try to keep the ball we get closed down too easily because the man on the ball doesn't have enough options. Against Hearts too often Sterling had to take on the defender because he didn't have an out ball, which is tough for a young player. For Lucas and Allen it is already automatic for them to move in support of the player on the ball. The others haven't got that yet. There were a few times against Hearts where Shelvey, Adam and Henderson would pass to a teammate then momentarily switch off and they would be standing still for a second or two.

good observation I was yelling at the screen because they were so static.

I think Allen - Lucas - Sahin with
........Gerrard - Borini - Suarez in front will create great one touch triangles and in any combination because they all are good technical players..in theory

[baitman]

...There were a few times against Hearts where Shelvey, Adam and Henderson would pass to a teammate then momentarily switch off and they would be standing still for a second or two.

henderson repeatedly passed the ball to a team mate, then ran forward, with no thought to supporting the man on the ball and making himself available for a pass.

athleticism and tennis ball skills do not make a footballer.

some intelligence of movement and awareness are things that some of the lads will struggle with. we need all the players to be on the same page. its not enough for brendan to tell them what he wants, they have to be able to understand the strategies and be able to concentrate to keep it going.

[Muddled]

How important is that first goal? Liverpool Win / Loss Stats Analysis

It has been quite clear for some time at Liverpool that when they concede a goal, the players’ heads drop, eventually press the ‘self-destruct’ button and go on to lose. I’ve become more aware and more worried by this scenario as time has gone by. Ever since the club’s near-triumphant title chase of 2008/09, the tenacity, the fight, and the battling mentalities that made that season so memorable have evaporated. I’ve taken it upon myself to take a look back since the start of that season to see how bad Liverpool are when they concede the first goal in a game.

If you were to ask any Liverpool fan what they remember staunchly from 2008/09, they almost would all say how good the team was at fighting back to win a match and how they never gave up until the last-minute.

Personally, I’ve never been so confident in a Liverpool side in all my life. If a match was dragging on and the score was deadlocked at 0-0 with 15 mins remaining, I knew we would get a goal, if not two. Even if we were trailing 2-0, I’d still be confident of getting a result. It was this confidence from everyone involved with the club that made that title fight last so long. And it was those battling tendencies that built up so much confidence and hype heading into 2009/10 but it all went wrong, and the trend started to set there.

What started to set in, for some reason, was when the side went a goal down or were level, their heads suddenly dropped and they’d go on to lose the match. After such a solid and dependable 2008/09, Liverpool were now crumbling under the slightest bit of pressure from opposition teams and failing to give the pressure and the fight back.

Since the start of 2008/09, Liverpool have lost a grand total of 42 Premier League matches. And that’s in four seasons and one match (2012/13).

That number is far too high for a team that wants to challenge for Champions League places and beyond but the past few seasons have been some of the hardest the Kopites have had to endure since the early 1950s and 1990s.

Instead of throwing a bucket load of numbers at you, I’ve compiled my research for Liverpool into simple tables showing all the information I have picked up. The contents of this particular table show how many matches Liverpool have lost, how many matches they have conceded the first goal in and the percentages of that.



Now, obviously, this needs comparing to other Premier League sides otherwise we won’t get a proper indication of how severe this problem is for Liverpool. I can understand myself that, logically and more often than not, if you concede the first goal, the chances of you losing increase. But as so often happens, teams equalise to salvage a draw or fight back to gain a win. The table above shows that when Liverpool lose, they often fall behind first, meaning they have a lack of fighting spirit, or their heads drop.

Something that happened so many times at the back-end of 2011/12 was when the side conceded they would look, quite simply, useless. I say that in the kindest way possible but it did look like that on numerous occasions in Kenny Dalglish’s final season at the helm.

Some might not grasp how important these figures are so I’d like to try to make it as simple to understand as possible. Last season, Liverpool lost 14 league games, and in those losses they conceded the first goal 12 times – that’s a percentage of 85%. So, basically, 85% of the time when Liverpool concede first, they go on to lose which is an appalling record. That number points to one outcome – there’s no fight or willingness/ability to come back in a game when losing and there is the issue. When a team gets to a stage when there’s no fight or strong enough mentality to come back from a losing position, they can find themselves in serious trouble. From Christmas onwards last season, the club’s form dipped dramatically and left them near the bottom of the league for ‘points picked up in 2012′. If that continues, who knows what will happen?

Any club with those figures will finish nowhere near the Top Four.

I took a look at Chelsea from the same time-scale to grasp another look at things, and to compare them to Liverpool. Now, in this time, Chelsea did win one league title so you would assume they’ll already have a better record than Liverpool but, don’t forget, statistically the Reds’ 2008/09 were worthy of the Premier League title so they can be compared.



As you can see, Chelsea’s overall percentage of conceding first and going on to lose is lower than Liverpool’s. They have lost fewer games but, pound-for-pound, Chelsea come out better. Their lower number shows that they tend to lose more games when in the lead (8) which is a different problem entirely, to be honest. If you compare that to Liverpool you’ll see that, in four-and-a-bit seasons, they have lost 8 matches when they’ve been in the lead, too. So quite similar records but Chelsea edge it at their percentages are much lower than Liverpool’s.

Conceding First and coming back

There are other ways to back up my argument about Liverpool’s problem and that is to show how little they come back from the brink of defeat to win games. Before even looking at the statistics to compare, I know there will be a high number of turnarounds from the first season of my research as that was what Liverpool were great at doing – getting stuck in a muddle but finding a way out to win the match.

What I’ve also compiled is the number of draws and number of occasions when Liverpool have fallen behind to salvage a draw. Nil-nils also included in the research to give a broader scope.



As you can see, and as I predicted, the first season of my research was the greatest for coming back to salvage points, either winning or drawing. In total, in the year Rafael Benitez got closest to winning the Premier League, Liverpool managed 9 comebacks in total – over half of the entire sum of figures when adding all seasons together.

In that particular season, with their backs against the wall, Liverpool came back to win the match 20% of the time – a vast number. Scrap that, though. 36% of the time, Benitez’s side came back to salvage a point. Liverpool’s downfall that season was too many draws but without those comebacks to draw, the title race wouldn’t have lasted anywhere near as long as it did.

This further proves how well the team played that season but also shows how far the team has dipped since. The following season, not one draw was salvaged from a losing position so already 09/10 was four points down on the previous season. Seven less wins culminated in Liverpool’s lowest finish for years and Rafael Benitez’s sacking. Of those 18 wins, there was one comeback – a percentage of 5.5%. Abysmal.

The two comebacks the following season was not much better but could be put down to the poor run of form under the new manager Roy Hodgson and while Dalglish was in charge from January onwards, the club won more games after taking the lead so didn’t have as many opportunities to comeback. 16 of 17 league wins that year came from taking the lead, a trend that the club has had since the end of 08/09. And wins have taken a hit, with the number slowly decreasing as time passed by.

Last season was clearly, statistically, the worst so far. A poor 14 wins (5 above what I consider enough to survive relegation) is embarrassing. The winning percentage from a losing percentage did rise (7%) but that was due to less wins. Dalglish did have the best draws from a losing position stat since 08/09, however, with three (33%).

Clearly, after mulling over the statistics, when Liverpool concede the first goal of a game, they struggle. A lot. Eight wins and eight draws salvaged from losing positions in four seasons is just not good enough.

If Brendan Rodgers is to turn Liverpool’s fortunes around he must manage the poor mentality at the club when a goal is conceded. It’s almost predictable now. I’ve seen many, many times on Twitter when Liverpool concede, everyone says the same thing: ‘Game over’; ‘Surprise, surprise. We miss chances and concede. No way back in this now.’ You could argue that the players’ inability to fight back from losing positions has now rubbed off on fans as any hope is diminished – both on the pitch and off it – once a goal is conceded.

It become a recurring scenario last season, almost like a wet British summer. Liverpool would throw everything at the opposition, miss their chances, concede and self-destruct. It was a hammer blow every time. That same mentality still exists now. You could call it bad luck but for it to constantly happen for a number of years and, most significantly, since January of this year – then there is a problem deep within this squad of players and it needs resolving quickly otherwise this could be another predictably disappointing season for Liverpool.

Link: EPL Index

[Neil Young]

That's a lot of words to say 'very'.

[Muddled]

[Muddled]

WBA Vs Liverpool Stats: Passing Network Analysis for Liverpool

Liverpool began their season with a disappointing result against West Bromwich Albion at the Hawthorns. Much has been made since Brendan Rodgers’ appointment about his passing philosophy, so the focus here will be upon analysing how Liverpool passed the ball against West Brom.

Passing network analysis

One method of analysing passing by a football team is network analysis, which I’ve used previously to assess Liverpool’s passing against FC Gomel. The idea with network analysis is that the connections between players are analysed to look at passing patterns in the team and to identify key players in the network in terms of passing. The number of passes played and received by each player is collated according to the player they passed to and who they received from respectively. The data for passes played and received is taken from the Stats Zone application, which was kindly provided by the excellent Anfield-Index. One caveat to note is that throw-ins are included, which boosts Johnson and Kelly’s passes completed in particular.

Below is the passing network for Liverpool and shows completed passes only. The larger and darker the arrow is, the greater the number of passes played by one player to another. The positions of the players are based on their average positions during the match provided by WhoScored, although Lucas and Allen are slightly separated horizontally for clarity as their average positions were practically next to each other. It is important to note that these are the average positions, which will not always be representative of where a player passed/received the ball. Also, only the starting 11 is shown as the substitutes had a fairly limited impact upon the game in terms of passing.



Shown above is the passing network for Liverpool from the away match against West Bromwich Albion on the 18th August 2012. Only completed passes are shown. Darker and thicker arrows indicate more passes between each player. The position of each marker is based upon their average position and the size of each marker is related to their closeness centrality, which is described in the text below. Asterisk indicates players who did not play the full match. Only the starting eleven is shown.

The main features in the above network are the reciprocal passes played between the defenders and the crisscrossing of passes in the midfield zone. Liverpool clearly kept the ball efficiently in deeper areas as the back four plus Lucas and Allen retained the ball well. The main issue for Liverpool was getting the ball to their attackers further up the pitch. Borini and Downing received the ball just 31 and 33 times respectively, with Downing in particular tending to pass the ball back to players in deeper areas; Downing completed a pass to Suárez twice and Borini once. Borini tended to combine with Johnson and Suárez in the main, passing to both of them on 7 occasions. Liverpool did effectively get the ball to Suárez, as he received the ball on 51 occasions and he was Liverpool’s main attacking outlet. Suárez tended to receive the ball from players in wide areas and from Lucas and Allen, whereas against Gomel the main link was with Gerrard and the quick interchanging of passes between them was less in evidence sadly.

Where you gonna pass to now, where you gonna go?

One of the useful tools of network analysis is that you can derive measures that indicate which players in the team are the most influential in terms of passing. One of these measures is known as “closeness centrality”, which in this context is dictated by the number of passes played and received by a given player. The key aspect of this measure is that it is greater when the passes that the player plays and receives are distributed more evenly across the team. If a hypothetical player makes 100 passes in a match and receives the ball 100 times, they would have a greater closeness centrality if they passed and received the ball 10 times to and from each team-mate compared to if they simply passed the ball back and forth to just 1 team-mate. Players with a larger closeness centrality score are interpreted as being a greater influence upon the passing of the team as they dictate the movement of the ball within the side.

In the figure above, the size of the player markers is dictated by their closeness centrality score. Joe Allen was Liverpool’s stand out player as he dictated Liverpool’s passing play. He generally received the ball from his centre-backs and Johnson prior to playing his passes. He linked well with Johnson and Borini on the left, his midfield partner Lucas and Suárez further forward. A feature of Allen’s play was his movement to make himself available for a pass and he received a pass on 62 occasions, more than any other player.

Skrtel had the next highest closeness score, although he was some way behind Allen. Agger was far less effective compared to the Gomel match, partly due to the sending off but also due to his passing recipients being lesser in scope as he favoured passes to Johnson, Skrtel and Allen. Lucas was also less of an influence, again partly due to not playing the full game but also due to being less central to the teams passing. Johnson was more effective than Kelly from full-back and was probably Liverpool’s most influential attacking force as he played high up the pitch on the left and created 3 scoring opportunities according to the EPL-Index Stats Centre. Downing and Borini’s involvement was very limited compared to their team-mates (only Reina was less involved). The involvement of Suárez and Gerrard was also disappointing. Overall, the lack of involvement of Liverpool’s front-4 was a hindrance over the course of the match, as most of the play was contained in the defensive and midfield zones.

Hey Joe

Liverpool’s passing against West Brom was reasonable, particularly in the 1st half and there were definite signs of Brendan Rodgers’ philosophy bedding in. However, the lack of involvement of the front-4 and in particular, Borini and Downing was disappointing. The major bright spot was the performance of Joe Allen, who dictated the passing play of the team to good effect. Unfortunately, Lucas wasn’t up to his usual level, which may be due to his ongoing recovery from injury and this match being the first time he started with Allen. Hopefully future games will see this partnership blossoming as they begin to complement each other in terms of their roles within the team. Such a partnership could be crucial in implementing the control that Brendan Rodgers desires.

Link: EPL Index

[baitman]

that passing network diagram is interesting. its showing the players who are most involved in the game. the smaller circles show the players who were less involved. you can plainly see skrtel and downing looking like they were not much involved...