Suarez vs Torres

[Mark79]

His goal against Blackburn was simply world class. We really should have won the league with him in the side. We squandered that chance.

Now we have an opportunity to build a new title chasing team with Suarez. Let's not **** this one up.

It was his injuries that scuppered us though. He only made 22 league appearances in 2008/09.

[BG1973]

He was far from ****e

90 games for us 49 goals and 22 assists

Stats last season?

He was easy on the eye but an ineffective striker who squandered far far too many opportunities and cost us points. That's ****e performance in my book.

I know there are extenuating circunstances and you can argue this or that but he summed us up last season.

This season he has been absolutely amazing no doubt. But he will need to back that up next year if he's to usurp Torres in my mind.

[Muddled]

Brendan Rodgers believes Premier League top scorer Luis Suarez is improving as a person and a player. He said the following to BBC Sport:

What I have admired from close hand is this is a guy who is trying to change. He has come in here and been labelled many things. Because he is a foreign player he will get accused more. If a British player dives we’ll laugh and find it funny but when it’s Luis Suarez he is a diver. There are cultural differences to where he has worked and played before and you can see he has clearly adapted to that.

It’s fair enough if the Liverpool manager says that the player is improving as a person – at the end of the day you have to be close to the player to know that and Brendan certainly seems like a man-manager. From a fans point of view – we can see it on the pitch also. The diving has certainly calmed down since the turn of the year and the blow up over the “handball” at Mansfield was an absolute joke especially from ESPN Commentator Jon Champion who labelled Suarez “a cheat”. The nerve – I was this close from having to buy a new television but Champion isn’t worth the hassle! Coming back to the point Luis Suarez has improved on the pitch with regards to behaviour but that’s not the only way he’s improved.

This season is his breakout year. We’ve seen it in the Premier League in the past – players take two years to settle and this is Suarez’s 2nd full season (10/11 was just half a season). It happened to Pires, Ljungberg and Henry in the past and it’s certainly taken Suarez last year (with some lessons learnt too) and now he’s flying. The Top Scorer in the Premier League with 21 goals – we didn’t think we’d be saying that about the player who was missing chances for fun last season. Here are the stats:

Luis Suarez Creativity 2011/12 Compared to 2012/13



Luis Suarez has played a similar amount of games to last season (he was banned for 8 games remember? How can we forget!) and he’s surpassed or improved in almost every single department. There is an improvement across the board and that must be applauded. If he isn’t voted Player of the Year he should certainly be the most improved player of the year.

A few things we can pick out: crossing accuracy up by 10%, mins per chance created has decreased by 9 mins which means he’s creating more often, 100 mins cut on the clear-cut chance creation – he’s tried to take on players more but isn’t beating them as well as last year! We’ll take that though. Onto goals scoring:

Luis Suarez Goal Scoring 2011/12 Compared to 2012/13



Well this is obvious – massive improvements in every statistic. Ten more goals, 117 mins shaved off per goal scored, more shots on target meaning an improved accuracy. Conventional chance conversion almost doubled and clear-cut chance conversion more than doubled this season! He’s been spectacular and in my opinion is the clear Player of the Year so far regardless of the competition – the improvement he’s shown after a disaster of a season, on and off the pitch, is nothing short of remarkable and shows his hunger and determination to succeed.

Link: EPL Index

[Muddled]

Stats last season?

He was easy on the eye but an ineffective striker who squandered far far too many opportunities and cost us points. That's ****e performance in my book.

I know there are extenuating circunstances and you can argue this or that but he summed us up last season.

This season he has been absolutely amazing no doubt. But he will need to back that up next year if he's to usurp Torres in my mind.

He's become more prolific when a chance (or a clear-cut chance) is presented to him, but he's just as accurate, just as creative and just as dangerous as last year ... so really he's performing the same, just putting the ball in the back of the net on a more consistent basis.

So, I struggle to see how you can call it a '****e performance'.

[BG1973]

He's become more prolific when a chance (or a clear-cut chance) is presented to him, but he's just as accurate, just as creative and just as dangerous as last year ... so really he's performing the same, just putting the ball in the back of the net on a more consistent basis.

So, I struggle to see how you can call it a '****e performance'.

How can he have become more prolific yet be just as accurate as last year? Muddled indeed.

His finishing was **** last year. He scored great goals but wasn't a great goal scorer. How could anybody argue otherwise?

I am acknowledging that this season he's been amazing and far far better. But objectively you must be able to see that last season as a striker who's job it is to pit the ball in the net he was not great by any stretch of the imagination. I am sure he would admit as much himself.

This is my criteria for saying Torres for me (currently). It's not me slagging Luis, I'm trying to be objective. This season he has been sublime but it's one season.

[MrMichael]

The problem with your point though is that "****e" is way excessive. You can argue his finishing was ****e, but that wasn't what you said initially. He was more inconsistent, occasionally frustrating and definitely had less end product, although factor in playing with Andy Carroll and 0/0 Downing... anyway, those points might be valid. But I would never say he was "****e" last year. Downing was ****e. Charlie Adam was ****e. Suarez was good, but just not great. This year he has been great.

[Shaggy]

The problem with your point though is that "****e" is way excessive. You can argue his finishing was ****e, but that wasn't what you said initially. He was more inconsistent, occasionally frustrating and definitely had less end product, although factor in playing with Andy Carroll and 0/0 Downing... anyway, those points might be valid. But I would never say he was "****e" last year. Downing was ****e. Charlie Adam was ****e. Suarez was good, but just not great. This year has been great.

Mainly agree. Not a chance in hell he was '****e' last season. I thought he was excellent, bar the spell around the Evra bull****. I thought he was excellent most of the time and I thought the he was the best player in the league even then, average goal return or not.

This season of course he has been sensational, becoming the prolific goalscorer I always knew he was and is.

[Muddled]

How can he have become more prolific yet be just as accurate as last year? Muddled indeed.

A shot straight at the keeper and a shot to the bottom corner are both on target, therefore accurate. As we've seen this year, he's retained the same accuracy (more or less - 2012: 44%, 2013: 47%) but he's finding the net on a more consistent basis ... ergo, he's more prolific.

His finishing was **** last year. He scored great goals but wasn't a great goal scorer. How could anybody argue otherwise?

It was erratic in places, but most certainly not ****. Unless you're just short of adjectives?

I am acknowledging that this season he's been amazing and far far better. But objectively you must be able to see that last season as a striker who's job it is to pit the ball in the net he was not great by any stretch of the imagination. I am sure he would admit as much himself.

Looking at it objectively, he's retained the same level of creative consistency last year when he was often paired with another striker to share the goal-getting burden. Yet, he still finished our top scorer in this supposedly '****' season, just shy of *double* the next player.

This year, he has continued to improve and stepped up to a central role with aplomb; he is being more clinical when presented with an opportunity and he is quite clearly playing with extra confidence. Whilst the media are still yet to warm to him, there is not as much character assassination taking place and he hasn't had to sit eight games out. As such, he's an ever-present and we're lucky to have him.

This is my criteria for saying Torres for me (currently). It's not me slagging Luis, I'm trying to be objective. This season he has been sublime but it's one season.

I don't see it as you slagging off Suarez, nor am I questioning your choice of Torres - I think you're underestimating Suarez's input last season.

[Shaggy]

How can he have become more prolific yet be just as accurate as last year? Muddled indeed.

His finishing was **** last year. He scored great goals but wasn't a great goal scorer. How could anybody argue otherwise?

I am acknowledging that this season he's been amazing and far far better. But objectively you must be able to see that last season as a striker who's job it is to pit the ball in the net he was not great by any stretch of the imagination. I am sure he would admit as much himself.

This is my criteria for saying Torres for me (currently). It's not me slagging Luis, I'm trying to be objective. This season he has been sublime but it's one season.

I would also argue that Suarez's job last season was a lot more than just having to 'put the ball in the net'. Still is really. He is a no.10 and no.9 rolled into one, the creator, the goalscorer, the fulcrum. So it's unfair to judge last season's performance solely in those terms.

[Mark79]

A shot straight at the keeper and a shot to the bottom corner are both on target, therefore accurate. As we've seen this year, he's retained the same accuracy (more or less - 2012: 44%, 2013: 47%) but he's finding the net on a more consistent basis ... ergo, he's more prolific.

But one is far more likely to hit the net than the other. In terms of beating the keeper (which is the really important part of shooting!), his accuracy has clearly improved.

[Muddled]

I would also argue that Suarez's job last season was a lot more than just having to 'put the ball in the net'. Still is really. He is a no.10 and no.9 rolled into one, the creator, the goalscorer, the fulcrum. So it's unfair to judge last season's performance solely in those terms.

[Tee]

****e last season? Ask Norwich how ****e he was.

[Muddled]

But one is far more likely to hit the net than the other. In terms of beating the keeper (which is the really important part of shooting!), his accuracy has clearly improved.

Oh, absolutely - I'm just trying to explain why some stats are the same (i.e. the accuracy percentage), yet the goals column has shot up. I couldn't say it with any conviction, but I'm thinking that a fair few of Suarez's goals this season have been 'scuffed', compared to last years when he went for placement which resulted in the woodwork being struck.

Unless he's in such a place that he's not even thinking and he's just putting it in the back of the net.

EDIT: Scuffed isn't the right word - maybe more central, through the keeper's legs, etc.

[Red_Polo]

He puts it in the back of the net then thinks about it later

[BG1973]

A shot straight at the keeper and a shot to the bottom corner are both on target, therefore accurate. As we've seen this year, he's retained the same accuracy (more or less - 2012: 44%, 2013: 47%) but he's finding the net on a more consistent basis ... ergo, he's more prolific.



It was erratic in places, but most certainly not ****. Unless you're just short of adjectives?



Looking at it objectively, he's retained the same level of creative consistency last year when he was often paired with another striker to share the goal-getting burden. Yet, he still finished our top scorer in this supposedly '****' season, just shy of *double* the next player.

This year, he has continued to improve and stepped up to a central role with aplomb; he is being more clinical when presented with an opportunity and he is quite clearly playing with extra confidence. Whilst the media are still yet to warm to him, there is not as much character assassination taking place and he hasn't had to sit eight games out. As such, he's an ever-present and we're lucky to have him.



I don't see it as you slagging off Suarez, nor am I questioning your choice of Torres - I think you're underestimating Suarez's input last season.

And I feel people are seriously over valuing his input last season. His Role was striker and he missed lots and lots of chances. I found him incredibly frustrating to watch and I bet Kenny did too.

Without wishing to hijack the thread we should probably agree to disagree.