Liverpool Defence

[marcus50bucks]

For those that didn't manage to see Carragher's and Neville's analysis here it is. I thought it was excellent analysis.

[ame="http://vimeo.com/104373217"]http://vimeo.com/104373217[/ame]

For me until we work as a cohesive unit, we're going to have the same problems. It's been the same problem since Rodgers has been here and it could well be his blind spot. As Neville said there are basic errors we're making so hopefully once we have a settled back four those things will be ironed out. It needs to happen pretty sharpish though.

[~LFCHistory~]

Perhaps we need to hire a defensive coach because it can't just be the players fault that we can't keep a clean sheet to save our lives. Other PL teams with inferior defenders to ours can keep clean sheets so it stands to reason that we can.

[Tee]

Get Carra in to sort it out Brendan.

[marcus50bucks]

2012/2013:
Man United away: 2 goals conceded
City away: 2 goals conceded
Arsenal away: 2 goals conceded
Chelsea away: 1 goal conceded
Everton away: 2 goals conceded
Spurs away: 2 goals conceded

2013/2014:
Man United away: 0 goals conceded
City away: 2 goals conceded
Arsenal away: 2 goals conceded
Chelsea away: 2 goals conceded
Everton away: 3 goals conceded
Spurs away: 0 goals conceded

2014/2015:
City away: 3 goals conceded

No matter how you try to spin this it doesn't make good reading. Away from home against the big teams is a problem. With Champions league is also coming up so Rodgers is going to have to decide the best way to set us up in those away games against the big teams.

[MrMichael]

To be honest, with 2 new players in the backline, one of whom only signed from abroad last week and is still very much a prospect rather than the finished article, and with the 2 others being Skrtel and Johnson, both of whom do have established weaknesses in their games & long term form, it is hardly a surprise there were some mistakes and it is very premature to make a judgement about this season's defence.

I thought we looked very solid until the first goal, during which the defending was not perfect but would not have been a major problem had Moreno been alert and prepared to clear with his right foot. We've bought well at the back but we do need time to get things settled and organised back there, and we also have an issue imo in defensive midfield with personnel to get right too.

As for Rodgers' blind spot, perhaps but our issue often seems more about individual errors than systems to me. We've had very healthy goal differences both seasons under him, I don't think we'll ever be the meanest in the league but if we can cut out the mistakes, which now with better individuals should come in time, we should hopefully reduce the number we concede to a more acceptable level, and allow our forward players to do their thing.

[danperkins]

Well this thread will be busy

Was really a great analysis by Carra & Neville. I like Lovren but some going on like he's Franco Baresi. 51% attacking on the side of Moreno & Lovren & Lovren culpable for all 3 goals. Lovren and Moreno are new and things were just a mess. Was a gamble.

Skrtel and Lovren definitely need to communicate more hopefully that will come in time & Moreno hopefully will improve... but it is individual errors that are costing us. We do need to get a settled back line badly.

[frank the tank]

i hope Brendan picks his back 4 and says "right - next 10 games, you are in there barring injury or suspension" Give them time to get acquainted. Play them in every feckin game, every training game, every warm up. Have their breakfast, lunch and dinner together. Make them sit on the bus together. Make them have feckin slumber parties in each others houses each night. Look at the best defensive partnershps in football history and they knew each other inside out.

[danperkins]

It really is a difficult situation for us. So we have Gerrard with obviously defensive weaknesses in front of the back line, we have Moreno who is new, Johnson who is way off and now injured, Flanagan & Enrique injured, Manquillo who is new and a kid & Lovren & Skrtel who it seems communication is non existent between the two. Oh and Mignolet who doesn't command the box.

**** me we have a lot of work to do.

[marcus50bucks]

To be honest, with 2 new players in the backline, one of whom only signed from abroad last week and is still very much a prospect rather than the finished article, and with the 2 others being Skrtel and Johnson, both of whom do have established weaknesses in their games & long term form, it is hardly a surprise there were some mistakes and it is very premature to make a judgement about this season's defence.

I thought we looked very solid until the first goal, during which the defending was not perfect but would not have been a major problem had Moreno been alert and prepared to clear with his right foot. We've bought well at the back but we do need time to get things settled and organised back there, and we also have an issue imo in defensive midfield with personnel to get right too.

As for Rodgers' blind spot, perhaps but our issue often seems more about individual errors than systems to me. We've had very healthy goal differences both seasons under him, I don't think we'll ever be the meanest in the league but if we can cut out the mistakes, which now with better individuals should come in time, we should hopefully reduce the number we concede to a more acceptable level, and allow our forward players to do their thing.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying Michael but it's got to the stage now where I think it's too easy to always blame the players and put it down to just individual mistakes. This is Rodgers 3rd season now and we have never really looked solid defensively it has to be said. So the question is, is our problem really just down to individual mistakes, is it down to the system, or is it a bit of both?

[marcus50bucks]

Jamie Carragher critical again about our defending

https://audioboo.fm/boos/2423742-jamie-carragher-liverpool-spending-over?utm_campaign=detailpage#t=0m1s

[baronvonskidmark]

I do get the feeling that defending as a unit is not something we work on much in training. Perhaps we work more on small sided games which are great at promoting ball skills but do not help as much with working as a cohesive unit in defence.

I am no expert by any means, but it seems to me that defenders are to take their own position from the player next to them that is facing the ball; it seems that in Lovren and Skrtel we have two totally different defenders. The first goal seemed a fairly basic error on Moreno's part which can be largely attributed to inexperience of the PL. However, quite often yesterday Lovren seemed to step towards the ball, either by stepping to his left or stepping up. The onus then should be on Skrtel to then narrow any space by either stepping to his left along with Lovren or stepping up with Lovren, which would enable us to either narrow the space between them or maintain a proactive defensive line where we either win the ball or play offside. Johnson should then should follow suit. I'm not sure if this is down to Skrtel and Lovren being so different in their style of defending, with one being proactive (Lovren) and one being reactive/drop off (Skrtel). Long term I'm not sure how good a partnership they will be.

Lovren seemed to have a bit of a mare tbh though. All our goals conceded so far this season have come from the left hand side of our defence - and more chances have been created there also. Clearly City targeted this area (51% of their attacks according to Sky) despite what Pelligrino said. If you look at Skrtel and Lovren, they rarely seem to be playing 'together' - one is either significantly further away (Southampton) or behind the other (Jovetic's second). I'm not sure if we can blame either of Lovren and/or Skrtel as the relationship is still developing - which hopefully it will.

The last thing we could possibly want is to be playing a pressing team away from home that are scoring goals and have their tails up at the moment. Next weekend it is Spurs...

Over to you Brendan.

[Lecter]

Perhaps we need to hire a defensive coach because it can't just be the players fault that we can't keep a clean sheet to save our lives. Other PL teams with inferior defenders to ours can keep clean sheets so it stands to reason that we can.

Players can certainly be drilled to be more effective

I cant stand the man but look at what Pulis has done at the various sides hes been with, he gets them organised and disciplined in defensive positions

[baronvonskidmark]

Players can certainly be drilled to be more effective

I cant stand the man but look at what Pulis has done at the various sides hes been with, he gets them organised and disciplined in defensive positions

Also Rodgers has cited Mourinho as important in his career development. Surely then he would have seen Mourinho drilling his defence and so knows what is required. This is something that I can't quite get my head around. I would not want us to play like Mourinho's overall play at all, but Brendan must have seen ways to make the back four play more like a unit - defence is one Mourinho's main strengths after all. Surely he would have picked up a few pointers, which makes our own defending (after 2+ years) even more confusing.

[MrMichael]

It really is a difficult situation for us. So we have Gerrard with obviously defensive weaknesses in front of the back line, we have Moreno who is new, Johnson who is way off and now injured, Flanagan & Enrique injured, Manquillo who is new and a kid & Lovren & Skrtel who it seems communication is non existent between the two. Oh and Mignolet who doesn't command the box.

**** me we have a lot of work to do.

We're better off in players resources terms this season than we have been at any time since the peak of Rafa's curve imo. But we've done a lot of work this summer, necessary however it always was going to take time to bed in especially with the forward line figuring out life post-Suarez. We'll be fine, but that was about the worst fixture possible for us at this point.

Moreno is not the finished article. I said that several times earlier this summer that actually a Bertrand type signing, though with a much lower ceiling, would have been more solid immediately for us. I'm glad that's not what we've done but City were ruthless in how they went at him and I don't think we would have suffered so badly with even a fit Enrique playing.

Lovren and Skrtel; I really rate Lovren, but he didn't have a good game yesterday. I do have to say though, that if every quality player put next to Skrtel has communication issues; Agger, Sakho, Lovren... at what point do we have to look at the common factor? I don't know, I think they'll get better but he does worry me, sorry Dan.

[marcus50bucks]

I do get the feeling that defending as a unit is not something we work on much in training. Perhaps we work more on small sided games which are great at promoting ball skills but do not help as much with working as a cohesive unit in defence.

I am no expert by any means, but it seems to me that defenders are to take their own position from the player next to them that is facing the ball; it seems that in Lovren and Skrtel we have two totally different defenders. The first goal seemed a fairly basic error on Moreno's part which can be largely attributed to inexperience of the PL. However, quite often yesterday Lovren seemed to step towards the ball, either by stepping to his left or stepping up. The onus then should be on Skrtel to then narrow any space by either stepping to his left along with Lovren or stepping up with Lovren, which would enable us to either narrow the space between them or maintain a proactive defensive line where we either win the ball or play offside. Johnson should then should follow suit. I'm not sure if this is down to Skrtel and Lovren being so different in their style of defending, with one being proactive (Lovren) and one being reactive/drop off (Skrtel). Long term I'm not sure how good a partnership they will be.

Lovren seemed to have a bit of a mare tbh though. All our goals conceded so far this season have come from the left hand side of our defence - and more chances have been created there also. Clearly City targeted this area (51% of their attacks according to Sky) despite what Pelligrino said. If you look at Skrtel and Lovren, they rarely seem to be playing 'together' - one is either significantly further away (Southampton) or behind the other (Jovetic's second). I'm not sure if we can blame either of Lovren and/or Skrtel as the relationship is still developing - which hopefully it will.

The last thing we could possibly want is to be playing a pressing team away from home that are scoring goals and have their tails up at the moment. Next weekend it is Spurs...

Over to you Brendan.

Perhaps you're right mate. You can imagine the likes of Rafa and Mourinho spending endless time on it though. I think you made a very good point about our centre backs not working together. Somebody posted on rawk that it could be a case where Rodgers needs to sit down with Lovren, Sakho, Skrtel etc and say Lovren you lead the line and Skrtel you follow his lead. I know it sounds basic but for me at times it didn't look like Lovren and Skrtel were singing from the same page.