Holding midfielder

[Charly]

I did not want to start a new thread, but to me this is now starting to become... annoying.

I was willing to give the benefit of doubt to Klopp, in that perhaps his system did not require a specialist midfielder to protect the defence, a man with no ego, who has no purpose other than to be a badass mf, and (cleanly) strike down any opposition player who attempts to breathe the same oxygen as our centrebacks.

Perhaps with a more team-centric ethic where the entire team attack, press and defend as a single unit, a dm is superflous.

But all I see is a defence thats begging to be propped up by either a terrifying, Argentine pitbull type, or a faultless efficient German who can literally make people foul him at will.

Looking back, since winning the league we have only really had two "teams" that had a sustained period of sucess. One had Hamman at the heart, the other Mascherano. Since watching Hamman all that time ago, I became convinced that every team should have a "water carrier" protecting the back four. Indeed both Houllier and Benitez learnt that the team was more likely to do well (especially in Europe) through a substition... one in a game that looked like we had won, and one that looked like we had lost. In both cases, Hamman appeared to be the key to stopping the other team from scoring, and allowing the rest of our team to play to its strengths.

Mascherano was part of an amazing side that was unfortunately dismantled soon after LFC became one of the most feared club sides in the world... and looked like it could go on to dominate (imagine if we had kept that side together... and then add Suarez...) ... .... [emoji31]

I know left back is a priority, but I think it would earn us even more points if we could buy a similar defensive midfielder... even before a LB.

I have been waiting since we lost Monstermasch for a like for like replacement...every transfer window expecting us to do the sensible thing, but each time disappointed, leaving us with players who clearly dont have the ability physique or temperament to play the role.

So I was wondering, is this a priority for others? Mane was obviously needed for the pace he injects, but I was disappointed that our next purchase did not fill this obvious gap in the squad. I think we can "make do" at leftback... but considering out net spend... I am not sure why we cant do both.

[gratziani]

I did not want to start a new thread, but to me this is now starting to become... annoying.

I was willing to give the benefit of doubt to Klopp, in that perhaps his system did not require a specialist midfielder to protect the defence, a man with no ego, who has no purpose other than to be a badass mf, and (cleanly) strike down any opposition player who attempts to breathe the same oxygen as our centrebacks.

Perhaps with a more team-centric ethic where the entire team attack, press and defend as a single unit, a dm is superflous.

But all I see is a defence thats begging to be propped up by either a terrifying, Argentine pitbull type, or a faultless efficient German who can literally make people foul him at will.

Looking back, since winning the league we have only really had two "teams" that had a sustained period of sucess. One had Hamman at the heart, the other Mascherano. Since watching Hamman all that time ago, I became convinced that every team should have a "water carrier" protecting the back four. Indeed both Houllier and Benitez learnt that the team was more likely to do well (especially in Europe) through a substition... one in a game that looked like we had won, and one that looked like we had lost. In both cases, Hamman appeared to be the key to stopping the other team from scoring, and allowing the rest of our team to play to its strengths.

Mascherano was part of an amazing side that was unfortunately dismantled soon after LFC became one of the most feared club sides in the world... and looked like it could go on to dominate (imagine if we had kept that side together... and then add Suarez...) ... .... [emoji31]

I know left back is a priority, but I think it would earn us even more points if we could buy a similar defensive midfielder... even before a LB.

I have been waiting since we lost Monstermasch for a like for like replacement...every transfer window expecting us to do the sensible thing, but each time disappointed, leaving us with players who clearly dont have the ability physique or temperament to play the role.

So I was wondering, is this a priority for others? Mane was obviously needed for the pace he injects, but I was disappointed that our next purchase did not fill this obvious gap in the squad. I think we can "make do" at leftback... but considering out net spend... I am not sure why we cant do both.

good post mate, a dm would cut a lot of balls out just by positioning in the first place which is why i would have Lucas in there ahead of either of Henderson and Wijnaldum if we are not going to buy a specialist for that position.

[cream]

Can will be our 'holding' player. Be patient, I think Klopp knows what he's doing.

[Angryred]

Can will be our 'holding' player. Be patient, I think Klopp knows what he's doing.

Aye, I'm thinking Klopp has changed his tune on tactics of last year as has his own players in this summer & no opportunity to play his first team yet as they are not up to scratch yet.

I'm willing to wait & see what Klopp has in mind once his team is up & running as what we are seeing are teething problems but against Spurs, we saw it in spurts...liked what I saw against a decent side & not yet with the luxury of having a home game, I'm willing to bet that against Chelsea or Leicester, we will click into gear & someone is gonna get it!

Also by putting Milner, who is capable of carrying out instructions from his boss to the letter, in that lb position with Moreno watching & hopefully learning by example rather academically.

[Charly]

I do not see Can as having the discipline... if anything a bit of experience in that role is required as its very much about positioning, which I think comes more naturally with experience, although thats not to say he cant play there.

[labourRed]

Can as a holding player will just be a stop gap. What difference is another one.

[rudedog]

IMO, for a dedicated holding midfielder to be effective we would require a change of formation - Klopp likes 2 of the 3 central midfielders to push forward and support the attack which can leave large spaces for the deepest CM to cover when the opposition team breaks. I'm pretty sure a specialist DM would still struggle to cover these spaces unless Klopp alters his system and instructs one of the other CMs to stay deeper.

Instead, I have a feeling that we might see Klopp address this by asking Matip to push out from defence to help in these situations rather than compromising our attacking fluidity. The fact that Matip can also play DM would make him well suited for this.


Going back to Mascherano, he was part of a very effective CM pairing. Mascherano often caught the eye with his tackling but IMO, Alonso was just as effective with his clever positioning. I also remember Rafa's system with two deep midfielders really frustrating much of the fan base, the perception being that our attacks were not being supported by enough midfielders.

[Cormack74]

Matip can definitely play the holding role IMO. In fact I think it would suit him as well if not better than CB.

[Charly]

I dont think it was formation that was the problem but the poor wider players. Mascherano/Alonso are about as good as it gets as a pairing. Left Torres and Stevie G to storm forward.

[rudedog]

I dont think it was formation that was the problem but the poor wider players. Mascherano/Alonso are about as good as it gets as a pairing. Left Torres and Stevie G to storm forward.

Defensively they were great, the argument was that both weren't necessary against teams that parked the bus and resulted in too many draws.

[cream]

I dont think it was formation that was the problem but the poor wider players. Mascherano/Alonso are about as good as it gets as a pairing. Left Torres and Stevie G to storm forward.

As is always the the case, it's about the quality of the player rather than the formation. Alonso and Masch were world class players who went on to play for the two best teams in the world. I doubt it would've worked so well had we had two lesser players. Our issues in midfield comes from the lack quality.

[danperkins]

As is always the the case, it's about the quality of the player rather than the formation. Alonso and Masch were world class players who went on to play for the two best teams in the world. I doubt it would've worked so well had we had two lesser players. Our issues in midfield comes from the lack quality.

[Phoenix07]

Alonso and Mascherano were not the problems in converting draws to wins. We had Gerrard and Torres to attack, but then our wide areas were lacking in pace and skill. Kuyt was exceptional with his workrate, but then the left hand side let us down with Babel and Riera. If we had another quality player on that flank, I'm confident we would've had more wins, and who knows what would've happened.

Our full-backs did their best to push forward, but again, if we'd had a flying full-back on one flank, then it would've opened up new possibilities.

As for Matip, Klopp converted Hummels from a DM into a CB. Matip has already completed that process, so I doubt we'll see Matip play DM.

[rudedog]

Alonso and Mascherano were not the problems in converting draws to wins. We had Gerrard and Torres to attack, but then our wide areas were lacking in pace and skill. Kuyt was exceptional with his workrate, but then the left hand side let us down with Babel and Riera. If we had another quality player on that flank, I'm confident we would've had more wins, and who knows what would've happened.

Our full-backs did their best to push forward, but again, if we'd had a flying full-back on one flank, then it would've opened up new possibilities.

As for Matip, Klopp converted Hummels from a DM into a CB. Matip has already completed that process, so I doubt we'll see Matip play DM.

It wasn't my intention to dredge up the discussion of whether the Mash/Alonso pairing was too defensive against weak opponents - the main point I was trying to make was that it was a successful pairing rather than Mascherano being solely responsible (as seemed to be implied by the OP).

[labourRed]

Shame Wilshere could only play 15mins at the moment and Arsenal wouldn't let him come here anyway. But that sort of player is something we don't have in midfield.