Alisson Becker

[Exiled_red]

What problems? Form and confidence and generally going alarmingly downhill.

Admittedly I can’t find any Reina quotes so it could be I’m just remembering internet or media talk, as you say. I just remember reading that Reina was not a fan of his methods.

Speaking for myself though, it was the pattern of keepers getting worse rather than improving that made me concerned about Achterberg.

Happily though, I’d pretty much forgotten about that since Alisson has been here, which is credit to both of them. I still say the concerns were reasonable though, even if they weren’t correct.

I know alot of people who had similar criticisms of Joe Corrigan when he was our GK coach. I think it is really difficult to tell whether it is the player or coach particularly as GK coaches will probably only work with a handful of GKs and over a period of 10 years probably only about 3 or4 of them will play regularly.

[Mark79]

That's sort of my point, their 'problems' are debatable. I'd argue that Mig was a better all round keeper by the time he left, but ultimately still not good enough and never was. Karius had definitely shown signs of improvement and what happened with him was completely random and hardly something you can blame the coach for.

I too searched for the Reina quotes as something rang a bell with me, but either way, Pepe went through numerous coaches after Valero left and his best form was actually the final few months he was here, which I assume was under Achterberg.

Most of the accusations against Achterberg were assumptions and guesswork and I always found it odd that so many fans claimed to be experts on the subject, especially as those who worked with him generally spoke quite highly of him. Klopp absolutely loves him and has done from day 1 and if you believe the Mel Reddy article from last summer, Alisson probably wouldn't be here now if it wasn't for him.

I don’t agree that the issues were debatable. Each keeper became increasingly erratic and error prone over the course of being here. I don’t think any of them left as better keeper than when they arrived.

Reina only had 2 coaches after Valero. Mike Kelly, who was only here as long as Hodgson was and Achterberg. Reina’s best form was in his first 4 years (under Ochotorena and Valero) not his final few months. His last few years at Liverpool saw a big decline from him.

Mignolet was reportedly Achterbergs choice and I don’t remember him being so error prone at Sunderland or think he improved while at Liverpool.

Karius did show improvement before that final, but only on his own initial up and down Liverpool form, not on his form in Germany by all accounts.

As I say, my reasons for doubting Achterberg weren’t based on random guesswork. It was after seeing 3 successive 1st team keepers struggle over a period of about 9 years since he’d been coach.

[dom9]

Such staunchly detailed arguments for something people know absolutely nothing about.

The Internet in microcosm.

[Buzzo]

Such staunchly detailed arguments for something people know absolutely nothing about.

The Internet in microcosm.

CBA reading all the detail for that very reason. Klopps been with JA for 4-5 years and rates him. That’s all that matters.

[Mark79]

Such staunchly detailed arguments for something people know absolutely nothing about.

The Internet in microcosm.

it's opinions, Dom. About Liverpool. On a Liverpool forum. If it's futile discussing such things then why don't we all just log off?

[Mark79]

CBA reading all the detail for that very reason. Klopps been with JA for 4-5 years and rates him. That’s all that matters.

Can be arsed to comment though

Know what I do with discussions I'm not interested in?
Nothing.

[Buzzo]

Can be arsed to comment though

Know what I do with discussions I'm not interested in?
Nothing.

Fair enough mate

[Red_Polo]

You're debating the issues, are you not?

Players incapable of rising to a new challenge tend to deteriorate regardless of the quality of coaching. So any attribution of blame to JA is nearly completely baseless.

Concerns or raising questions, fine. As others have said the certainty around it was/is idiotic, 1+1=3 tosh.

[Mark79]

You're debating the issues, are you not?

Players incapable of rising to a new challenge tend to deteriorate regardless of the quality of coaching. So any attribution of blame to JA is nearly completely baseless.

Concerns or raising questions, fine. As others have said the certainty around it was/is idiotic, 1+1=3 tosh.

Who are you talking to?

I don't think it's baseless for coaches to be accountable for players performance.

Yes, saying it was aclearly all Achterberg would be ridiculous. Nobody here has done that.

Anyway, done.

[Roboklopp]

I did bother reading mate, and can see the logic of your reasoning. A few were saying it - the evidence was clearly limited (& as we’ve seen most likely far too limited), but you weren’t alone in inferring here & it was a fairly widely accepted thing even amongst the posters that like to believe themselves more discerning here.


You’re correct, Reina’s form defo was best in his initial years & dipped post Valero. Not sure the need to rewrite the prevalent discourse at the time with the benefit of hindsight achieves tbh- Of course we know better now but you’ve admitted that & the responses to your post essentially are the type that shut down debate in a decreasing community.

[Red_Polo]

Who are you talking to?



I don't think it's baseless for coaches to be accountable for players performance.



Yes, saying it was aclearly all Achterberg would be ridiculous. Nobody here has done that.



Anyway, done.

Coaches should be accountable for their own performance as a coach. Player performance is just a handy surrogate for someone from the outside wanting to make a judgment with highly limited information as to how it may or may not relate to the actions/inaction of the coach.

Nobody's saying he had no part to play. Just that the idea he was THE problem was baseless as ****.

[Roboklopp]

Is that what he said tho? And from a fan’s perspective how are we to judge coaches’s performances other than via the players?

[Kenneth]

Coaches should be accountable for their own performance as a coach. Player performance is just a handy surrogate for someone from the outside wanting to make a judgment with highly limited information as to how it may or may not relate to the actions/inaction of the coach.

Nobody's saying he had no part to play. Just that the idea he was THE problem was baseless as ****.

Dom seemed to be, which started this Monday morning tussle.

[dom9]

Dom seemed to be, which started this Monday morning tussle.

Huh?

I've said no one has a clue.

[Mark79]

Coaches should be accountable for their own performance as a coach. Player performance is just a handy surrogate for someone from the outside wanting to make a judgment with highly limited information as to how it may or may not relate to the actions/inaction of the coach.

Nobody's saying he had no part to play. Just that the idea he was THE problem was baseless as ****.

Is this not what we as fans judge coaches and managers on all the time?

I'm sure you have opinions on LFC managers, Solskjaer, Silva, Emery, etc.
What exactly are you ultimately forming those on, if not what you see on the pitch?

And no, I never said JA was THE problem. Just that the concern was he was the constant factor, so maybe that was part of the issue.