Coronavirus and Football (Plus all Sport in General)

[rodo]

If we get ****ed over I think I would be done with football and I doubt I would be the only one.

[Exiled_red]

I think we’ll be ok. UEFA have urged everyone to find a way to resolve their leagues if playing isn’t possible. Voiding wouldn’t actually solve anything anyway.

The contentious things for the PL will be handling relegation/promotion and deciding UEFA places.

Deciding what to do about the title is the easy part.

I think that's the problem to be honest. I think most people think that we would deserve to win the title, but everything needs to be sorted out. I don't see a solution where we are awarded the title but no-one is promoted or relegated. I think it's an all (season is played on or decided somehow on points per game etc) or nothing (season is voided).

Any solution that sees standings determined without games being played will result in legal challenges from sides relegated as a result.

[Mark79]

I think that's the problem to be honest. I think most people think that we would deserve to win the title, but everything needs to be sorted out. I don't see a solution where we are awarded the title but no-one is promoted or relegated. I think it's an all (season is played on or decided somehow on points per game etc) or nothing (season is voided).

Any solution that sees standings determined without games being played will result in legal challenges from sides relegated as a result.

I think we’ve kind of been over this already, but voiding the season still results in legal challenges, from teams missing out of Europe and promotion teams. I don’t see any solution that avoids this, apart from actually finishing.

In any case, the season can not be voided if the PL wants to comply with UEFA. UEFA places need to decided (on sporting merit) at the very least. That will need to happen regardless of what they do about relegation.

[Exiled_red]

I think we’ve kind of been over this already, but voiding the season still results in legal challenges, from teams missing out of Europe and promotion teams. I don’t see any solution that avoids this, apart from actually finishing.

In any case, the season can not be voided if the PL wants to comply with UEFA. UEFA places need to decided (on sporting merit) at the very least. That will need to happen regardless of what they do about relegation.

But UEFA places can be decided without declaring a winner as the Dutch have done...

As you say the only way to avoid legal challenges is to play the games, but that seems to be difficult, which is a concern.

[ChesterDave]

Pot 1 of Champions League is the league winners. Something that is not a problem for the Dutch league

[Mark79]

But UEFA places can be decided without declaring a winner as the Dutch have done...

As you say the only way to avoid legal challenges is to play the games, but that seems to be difficult, which is a concern.

Exactly, doesn’t this just show that it doesn’t have to be all or nothing?

The difference there is, the Dutch title race was a much tricker decision with 2 teams tied at the top.

Here’s what the KNVB president said about that:

"We did not believe that that was appropriate. For example if you were to compare that to the English situation, maybe you would come to a different conclusion, Liverpool is so way out compared to the rest, I would not blame the FA to come to that conclusion. But in our case that was simply not appropriate."

In other words, they may have awarded the title if they had a runaway leader.

[Exiled_red]

There has to be something decided about European places as a list has to be put forward to UEFA, that could be decided in 3 ways, play the rest of the games and there is no problem, void the season and start where we were at the start of last season, or some current standings or points per game ruling.

For everything else promotion, relegation and titles they don't have to be sorted out, the league could do what has been done in the Dutch league declare no winner and have no promotion or relegation. The Dutch league did say they could have awarded the title if they thought that there was a clear winner, the problem with this is the inconsistency this creates if you don't have promotion or relegation, as you have only 'half cancelled' the season as some stuff is awarded and some isn't.

If we are awarded the title, Leeds will be pissed off that we got a title but they didn't get promotion which creates a problem for the FA. That is why I think it's an all or nothing, I think that they will see it as being fairer to award no titles to anyone than to pick and choose who wins them, particularly as championship and lower a title is meaningless without promotion, and promotion is unlikely to happen without relegation...

[Exiled_red]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52436317

Serie A teams to restart individual training 4th May, team training 18th May and hope to start fixtures by end of May although that hasn't been confirmed

[Mark79]

There has to be something decided about European places as a list has to be put forward to UEFA, that could be decided in 3 ways, play the rest of the games and there is no problem, void the season and start where we were at the start of last season, or some current standings or points per game ruling.

For everything else promotion, relegation and titles they don't have to be sorted out, the league could do what has been done in the Dutch league declare no winner and have no promotion or relegation. The Dutch league did say they could have awarded the title if they thought that there was a clear winner, the problem with this is the inconsistency this creates if you don't have promotion or relegation, as you have only 'half cancelled' the season as some stuff is awarded and some isn't.

If we are awarded the title, Leeds will be pissed off that we got a title but they didn't get promotion which creates a problem for the FA. That is why I think it's an all or nothing, I think that they will see it as being fairer to award no titles to anyone than to pick and choose who wins them, particularly as championship and lower a title is meaningless without promotion, and promotion is unlikely to happen without relegation...

I’m running out of different ways to say this, but voiding and starting next season where we were at start of season this is against UEFA instructions. They want CL/Euro qualifiers resulting from this season, based on sporting merit.

The Dutch league have decided the issues of title, European places and relegation by individual means. As has Belgium who have awarded titles before they have even decided what to do about relegation. These are separate issues so there’s no reason to decide them uniformly.

Leeds will be pissed off if they’re denied promotion whether Liverpool get the PL title or not.

[dungcupt]

corona is scary

[Exiled_red]

I’m running out of different ways to say this, but voiding and starting next season where we were at start of season this is against UEFA instructions. They want CL/Euro qualifiers resulting from this season, based on sporting merit.

The Dutch league have decided the issues of title, European places and relegation by individual means. As has Belgium who have awarded titles before they have even decided what to do about relegation. These are separate issues so there’s no reason to decide them uniformly.

Leeds will be pissed off if they’re denied promotion whether Liverpool get the PL title or not.

Sporting merit in terms of UEFA qualification and League titles and promotion/relegation don't necessarily go together. As can be seen from the Dutch league, they have decided UEFA qualification for next season but have not awarded a title and have not allowed promotion or relegation. Yes the Dutch league have said that they could have chosen to award the title but circumstances of their league make that difficult to do so (teams tied on points).

Taken in isolation it would be easy to award us the title, given our position in the table and the fact that the top flight title doesn't influence other leagues (in terms of promotion etc). The problem here for me is the FA whether you agree with this or not they see themselves as the bastions of fairness and integrity who lead the world in what they do. IMO they will want to apply a consistent criteria across the system about awarding titles. They won't want to have a PL champion but no Championship, League 1 etc champion, they will look for a consistent way of dealing with things. The football league situations are much more complicated because while we care about the title those other (football league) clubs (I mentioned Leeds as an example) don't ultimately care about their title they care about promotion - if you offered Leeds the title but no promotion or promotion by no title (not going to happen but it illustrates the point) they would take the latter every time. Being awarded a title but not promoting them would take the piss. If they promote teams then they have to either relegate teams or have an expanded league, relegation based on an incomplete season raises the issue of legal challenges etc. The expanded format extends the season and if we are sticking to the current timetable (Euros next summer) and facing a potential delay to the start of the season it's hard to see how that could be accommodated, so I don't see either happening. While you could try to take every decision in isolation as has been suggested and done by other countries I just don't see the FA allowing this to happen, they are more traditional than other ruling bodies.

While our situation is the easiest to resolve in isolation the implications of making that decision first could put the FA in a difficult position elsewhere. As a result I wouldn't be surprised if they are reluctant to make a decision on the PL title until they have figured out what happens elsewhere in the football system - if they decide that they can't promote teams then they are unlikely to award titles lower down the system and in that situation they might deem it fairest not to award any titles.

The external conditions placed on the FA by UEFA can be met by basing European places on the current league table - satisfying UEFA's sporting merit criteria whether a title or anything else is awarded. In a way the current table is perfect for such a situation, with Man City facing a ban they other big side currently battling for CL football (Man Utd) will get in because they are in 5th, Sheff Utd and Wolves are probably happy to get Europa League places (at least they are less likely to kick up a fuss about CL than other sides). Arsenal and Spurs are sufficiently far down the table that they probably only had an outside chance of making CL anyway, while they might be annoyed if they don't get a Europa League spot they are probably less likely to kick up a fuss than if they would if it were about a CL spot.

That's just my two pennyworth.

[Mark79]

Sporting merit in terms of UEFA qualification and League titles and promotion/relegation don't necessarily go together. As can be seen from the Dutch league, they have decided UEFA qualification for next season but have not awarded a title and have not allowed promotion or relegation. Yes the Dutch league have said that they could have chosen to award the title but circumstances of their league make that difficult to do so (teams tied on points).

Taken in isolation it would be easy to award us the title, given our position in the table and the fact that the top flight title doesn't influence other leagues (in terms of promotion etc). The problem here for me is the FA whether you agree with this or not they see themselves as the bastions of fairness and integrity who lead the world in what they do. IMO they will want to apply a consistent criteria across the system about awarding titles. They won't want to have a PL champion but no Championship, League 1 etc champion, they will look for a consistent way of dealing with things. The football league situations are much more complicated because while we care about the title those other (football league) clubs (I mentioned Leeds as an example) don't ultimately care about their title they care about promotion - if you offered Leeds the title but no promotion or promotion by no title (not going to happen but it illustrates the point) they would take the latter every time. Being awarded a title but not promoting them would take the piss. If they promote teams then they have to either relegate teams or have an expanded league, relegation based on an incomplete season raises the issue of legal challenges etc. The expanded format extends the season and if we are sticking to the current timetable (Euros next summer) and facing a potential delay to the start of the season it's hard to see how that could be accommodated, so I don't see either happening. While you could try to take every decision in isolation as has been suggested and done by other countries I just don't see the FA allowing this to happen, they are more traditional than other ruling bodies.

While our situation is the easiest to resolve in isolation the implications of making that decision first could put the FA in a difficult position elsewhere. As a result I wouldn't be surprised if they are reluctant to make a decision on the PL title until they have figured out what happens elsewhere in the football system - if they decide that they can't promote teams then they are unlikely to award titles lower down the system and in that situation they might deem it fairest not to award any titles.

The external conditions placed on the FA by UEFA can be met by basing European places on the current league table - satisfying UEFA's sporting merit criteria whether a title or anything else is awarded. In a way the current table is perfect for such a situation, with Man City facing a ban they other big side currently battling for CL football (Man Utd) will get in because they are in 5th, Sheff Utd and Wolves are probably happy to get Europa League places (at least they are less likely to kick up a fuss about CL than other sides). Arsenal and Spurs are sufficiently far down the table that they probably only had an outside chance of making CL anyway, while they might be annoyed if they don't get a Europa League spot they are probably less likely to kick up a fuss than if they would if it were about a CL spot.

That's just my two pennyworth.

All that’s needed to satisfy UEFA is final league placings, determining qualifiers for CL and Europe. This effectively removes null and voiding.

But it leaves European leagues to determine what then happens about relegation/promotion and titles. As a a result, there will be cases of ‘half and half’ conclusions. Some may declare champions, some won’t. Some may carry out relegation/promotion, some won’t. Some may do a mixture of the 2.

I see what you’re saying. But I think everyone involved agrees the PL title is a forgone conclusion so there’ll be no appetite to argue that, since it has no bearing on the matter of the remaining UEFA places or promotion/relegation.

[Shaggy]

[ame]https://twitter.com/MiguelDelaney/status/1254713138999672833[/ame]

[Norbs]

I can see someone like Everton saying they can't fulfil a fixture because Moyseh is in isolation or something. If they do decide to do this then clubs unable to compete must be prepared to forfeit the fixtures.

[dom9]

corona is scary