Luton Town (a)

[Buzzo]

I feel like having crowd bans would be a more logical consequence.

Yep, a couple of games behind closed doors would do it.

It is soooo disingenuous of Luton to claim sections of their support dont understand what they are chanting about.

A. The Hillsborough tragedy is one of the most infamous supporter events and famous legal cases in the history of ANY sport.

and

B. They have beef. They missed out on European football because of Heysel.

They know and knew EXACTLLY what they were singing about.

[Rigadon]

Maybe, though last season we probably would not even have taken a point.


Was a very bad day at the office with maybe only four players (Gravenberch, Elliot, VVD and Alisson for me) playing well.

Too many teams seem to have figured out our box/inverted set up and the fact we have no movement and no overlap potential on our right flank with TAA tucking inside. Before when Slah would cut in and take a full back with him, TAA would bomb down the flank and have time to pick a pass/cross. Now we cannot do that unless we lose a man from the centre to do so and that then breaks the "box" in the middle.

We also have very little threat from TAA since his move to the inverted role. His assist numbers have fallen off a cliff and even his secondary assist numbers (pass that leads to an assist) have dwindled.


But if a very bad day at the office now means a point instead of a loss, then that too is progress no matter how frustrating the draw feels in the here and now. We are a team in transition given the number of new players and the new set up, and for a transitional season our start in terms of points on the board has still been a good one thus far.

Might well be we need a good season this term to set up a potentially great one next season.


Come January if we are still no more than three to five points off of the top spot, then it might well become a very interesting season given we tend to finish seasons strongly.

I think this will be a great season and hopefully we’ll be part of it. City are not quite as good as last season (thought they were exceptional last season). Arsenal and (particularly) Newcastle look really good. I’m not convinced Villa and Spurs have the staying power. As for the Luton game - I’m still pissed off at the result. Luton are a poor side. They’d struggle in the Championship. We REALLY should have beaten them easily. Dropping points to such teams has been our achilles heel for the best part of the last thirty odd years.

BTW - I agree on everything you’ve said about our current set up. We’re not getting the best of players or the team, yet we’re three points off the top of the league. Doing well but could be better

[Rigadon]

Del

[Doc_Piptorious]

I think this will be a great season and hopefully we’ll be part of it. City are not quite as good as last season (thought they were exceptional last season). Arsenal and (particularly) Newcastle look really good. I’m not convinced Villa and Spurs have the staying power. As for the Luton game - I’m still pissed off at the result. Luton are a poor side. They’d struggle in the Championship. We REALLY should have beaten them easily. Dropping points to such teams has been our achilles heel for the best part of the last thirty odd years.

BTW - I agree on everything you’ve said about our current set up. We’re not getting the best of players or the team, yet we’re three points off the top of the league. Doing well but could be better

They do have form for looking a bit shaky (by their standards in the first half of seasons though and then taking off in the second half so I tend to discount their early season form (which is still table topping) and just expect them to become a bland crushing machine at some point.


I think we are doing well at present, and in a way I think we are doing excellent as I think we are getting results despite our set up rather than because of it. Think it is an indicator of how good some of our new players are (along with some of our already there players), that we have been racking up results for a sustained period.

The box set up is puzzling though. The exact same flaws that were obvious with it in the final quarter of last season are still there now.

The right flank has little top no penetration or pace since the box set up came in.

We have zero overlaps on that flank.

We know really only have Salah providing goals or assists from that flank whereas before we had TAA providing a load of assists season after season. TAA goes central and the assists and game changing moments from him dry up.

Szobo now seems to be trying to play as an AM, then covering the right flank, and then also dropping back to cover MacAllister at DM seeing as TAA is not doing any work on the right flank and also not working much in the double pivot with MacAllister when the other team has the ball.

Our RCB is still having to cover RCB and RB as TAA does not come back quickly to create the back line when we are under pressure, and the LCB and LB are still having to shuttle across to cover positions when the RCB goes to RB but they are also having to try and do their regular roles at the same time.


Said it many times last season and again this season, but in order to accomodate TAA to play in a playmaking central role from which he creates very little by way of assists or secondary assists we seem to be having to run three or four players into the ground every game.

We saw last season and again this season how much Robertson's game was impacted by having to cover two roles each game instead of Robertson being let do what he has been excellent at for years.


I would say something if TAA was tearing it up in his current role, even if he was having two great games out of every four played, but he seems to have maybe a stand out game every six or seven games in the role and the rest of the time most games consist of a few nice passes from him, a number of moments where he is caught out of position, a few chances for the other team caused by his positioning and plenty of moments where he seems to just hang up the pitch and not chase back when we are under pressure.

We seem to have taken the guy who was the best attacking RB in the game imo for a good few season in a row and somehow turned him into a plodding fairly ineffective "creative" midfielder.

The one thing he is showing he is not is a playmaking midfielder. He might have the odd game where he look like one, but the following three or four games where he does very little says otherwise.



Despite all that I do think we have the bones of a very good team and even without any more additions this season (though I think we need maybe two in January) I reckon if we reverted to something close to our old 433 set up that the squad we have could really shine.

[Rigadon]

All of that Jacko

One other thing (probably a discussion for a different thread) - I think Curtis has been the glue that pulls our midfield together. IMO - he should be first choice. However, I’m not sure how that fits in a 4-3-3 with Dom, Mac and Grav.

[Pablo]

They do have form for looking a bit shaky (by their standards in the first half of seasons though and then taking off in the second half so I tend to discount their early season form (which is still table topping) and just expect them to become a bland crushing machine at some point.


I think we are doing well at present, and in a way I think we are doing excellent as I think we are getting results despite our set up rather than because of it. Think it is an indicator of how good some of our new players are (along with some of our already there players), that we have been racking up results for a sustained period.

The box set up is puzzling though. The exact same flaws that were obvious with it in the final quarter of last season are still there now.

The right flank has little top no penetration or pace since the box set up came in.

We have zero overlaps on that flank.

We know really only have Salah providing goals or assists from that flank whereas before we had TAA providing a load of assists season after season. TAA goes central and the assists and game changing moments from him dry up.

Szobo now seems to be trying to play as an AM, then covering the right flank, and then also dropping back to cover MacAllister at DM seeing as TAA is not doing any work on the right flank and also not working much in the double pivot with MacAllister when the other team has the ball.

Our RCB is still having to cover RCB and RB as TAA does not come back quickly to create the back line when we are under pressure, and the LCB and LB are still having to shuttle across to cover positions when the RCB goes to RB but they are also having to try and do their regular roles at the same time.


Said it many times last season and again this season, but in order to accomodate TAA to play in a playmaking central role from which he creates very little by way of assists or secondary assists we seem to be having to run three or four players into the ground every game.

We saw last season and again this season how much Robertson's game was impacted by having to cover two roles each game instead of Robertson being let do what he has been excellent at for years.


I would say something if TAA was tearing it up in his current role, even if he was having two great games out of every four played, but he seems to have maybe a stand out game every six or seven games in the role and the rest of the time most games consist of a few nice passes from him, a number of moments where he is caught out of position, a few chances for the other team caused by his positioning and plenty of moments where he seems to just hang up the pitch and not chase back when we are under pressure.

We seem to have taken the guy who was the best attacking RB in the game imo for a good few season in a row and somehow turned him into a plodding fairly ineffective "creative" midfielder.

The one thing he is showing he is not is a playmaking midfielder. He might have the odd game where he look like one, but the following three or four games where he does very little says otherwise.



Despite all that I do think we have the bones of a very good team and even without any more additions this season (though I think we need maybe two in January) I reckon if we reverted to something close to our old 433 set up that the squad we have could really shine.

Some great points in there Jacko.

We do massively miss those overlaps on the right side. I think it's parly why Harvey Elliott looks good this season, he is good at overlapping with Mo and he puts some good balls into the box.

[Doc_Piptorious]

All of that Jacko

One other thing (probably a discussion for a different thread) - I think Curtis has been the glue that pulls our midfield together. IMO - he should be first choice. However, I’m not sure how that fits in a 4-3-3 with Dom, Mac and Grav.

Totally agree on Jones. Think he has long been very much an underrated player but even moreso over the past 12 months.

Right now I would be starting him ahead of MacAllister and if we were going with a 433 I would go with

-----AM-------
CM--------CM


when on the ball

and a flat line of


CM------CM------CM


when pressing off the ball.



Then look at it again if we get someone like Andre in the winter and if he settles quickly.


Jones for me has a nice mix of some of the qualities that Wijnaldum had in his prime and also some of what Thiago brings. Very hard to get the ball off of him, he presses well, he is really good on the ball in tight situations and he recycles the ball so well you almost do not notice what he is doing is not simple at all.

Think if Jones was the same 22 year old player, but at another club, and we were linked with him for 40m or 50m we would all be excited at getting a player who looks so good at such a young age. But as he is already ours we kind of have a blind spot for how good he is and how much potential there still may be to be realised.

Some great points in there Jacko.

We do massively miss those overlaps on the right side. I think it's parly why Harvey Elliott looks good this season, he is good at overlapping with Mo and he puts some good balls into the box.

Elliot is trying to overlap when he gets minutes, but think part of the problem when that happens is that he, like Szobo, has to then desert a midfield position in order to do so. Plus he does not have a lot of pace or physicality to truly bother full backs.

His skill and work rate does allow him to do it a bit, though I cannot but think that it is a bit of a round peg in a square hole situation when he has to do it and I think when he does go on an overlap it just highlights again what TAA is not doing.

I would love to see what would happen if we had TAA back as an attacking RB, Mo cuts in, TAA goes on the overlap and we then still have a RCM be it Elliot or Szobo to then link up with both the overlapping full back and the cutting in side Salah.

Would then create those triangles of play we used to be so good at when Wijnaldum or Henderson still had the legs to run.

Now we have Szobo there with Elliot as a back up, so it seems mad not to use their energy at RCM to create the same sort of triangles of play on our right flank involving Mo and also TAA coming from RB. The box set up removes that fully from our play and slows everything down on our right flank as a result.

Not to mention it removes any ability to quickly create an overload on the right flank.

I know the box set up is designed to create overloads in the middle instead, but can we honesty say that since we started using it for the final ten games of last season and all of this season thus far that we have noticed us causing overloads in the middle consistently thoughout games more than we did when we were using a 433?


You could see the central overloads in almost every game Man City played in last season, but they tended to use a CB to push up to create the overload and the advancing CB only has to move forward in a straight line to create the overload and then go backwards in the same straight line to create a stable back four when under pressure. Is a simpler set up that is brutally efficient and forces less players to have to constantly be getting into covering positions so their CMs, and FBs.


This season City have changed their set up again and moved away from the box set up. They now are using a 3421 that sees a RB on the right side of the four but he does not invert and when under pressure he turns the back three into a back four and the right side player in the 2 behinmd the striker then drops back into the RM spot that was vacated and it becomes a 4411 when they are being put under pressure.

[Charly]

Thing is, I dont think you can judge the effectiveness if City's formation, as they have by far the best squad .

Tactical brilliance is where you take a group of players and can get them to overperform. Its very hard to judge when City are going to boss every game regardless.

I dont thonk Klopp had the best midfielders in the worl by a long way, but tbe formation brought the best out of everyone, and gave the team an edge.

Im really not sure what advantages this formation give us. An extra player in the middle in the defensive half? What advantage has that given us?

Trents superpower was his crossing and delivery from wide. We have half the rest of the team that can play through balls down the middle. Maybe it needs nore time, but I just dont see what we are TRYing to achieve. Personally I think we look like a mess in the opposition half. I cant really see the patterns of play when we regain posession. It all seems a bit improvised compared to before.

I dont think we have the forward line that suits our previous tactic. Nobody seems to be playing in their best position. Nobody has the pace or tight control cutting in (apart from Diaz) Everyone is probably better suited playing through the middle. But we are sticking with a three and hoping Salah or Jota can make the best of it.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Thing is, I dont think you can judge the effectiveness if City's formation, as they have by far the best squad .

Tactical brilliance is where you take a group of players and can get them to overperform. Its very hard to judge when City are going to boss every game regardless.

I dont thonk Klopp had the best midfielders in the worl by a long way, but tbe formation brought the best out of everyone, and gave the team an edge.

Im really not sure what advantages this formation give us. An extra player in the middle in the defensive half? What advantage has that given us?

Trents superpower was his crossing and delivery from wide. We have half the rest of the team that can play through balls down the middle. Maybe it needs nore time, but I just dont see what we are TRYing to achieve. Personally I think we look like a mess in the opposition half. I cant really see the patterns of play when we regain posession. It all seems a bit improvised compared to before.

I dont think we have the forward line that suits our previous tactic. Nobody seems to be playing in their best position. Nobody has the pace or tight control cutting in (apart from Diaz) Everyone is probably better suited playing through the middle. But we are sticking with a three and hoping Salah or Jota can make the best of it.

My point regarding City and their formations is that they tend, in recent seasons, to keep the basic set up of those formations pretty simple despite having a squad so stacked in talent.


Whereas before Guardiola was prone to bouts of over complicating things and that was where they came unstuck in big once off games in the likes of the Champions league.

They have gone simpler and more common sense in how they set up and the depth of talent they have tends to shine through more often rather than having to play through layers of over thought tactics along the way.


We also have a squad with a lot of depth in quality now. Maybe not at the level of City in terms of that depth but still better than the majority of teams in the league. But we seem to be at the stage of making a formation overly complicated and making a number of players having to work or play through our set up first and then play the other team second.

We have some brilliant players that do not seem natural fits for where we are trying to play them even though those players are proven to be excellent when the team's set up was different.

As said in an earlier post, I think we are doing really well this season despite our current set up and not because of it.

I also think that is a reason to be excited about the team because at some point I think Klopp is going to decide that TAA is not suitable for the central role.

My own feeling, and this is based on bits of magic string plucked from the air, is that the box set up is a mix of Klopp being a bit stubborn with his tweak of a formation that works really well on paper and also a bit of Klopp indulging TAA maybe a bit more than he should. Maybe it has something to do with TAA's contract quietly starting to run down despite there being talk earlier this year of wanting to extend it.

He now has 19 or 20 months left on his contract as it runs out at the end of next season and we have gone from a burst of media releases towards the end of last season about looking to sigh him up to a new contract extension asap to another six or seven months having ticked away from his current contract.

For me we are starting to approach the stage of needing to either get him locked down to a new deal or start figuring out if he is looking to simply run down his contract. Might seem a long way away but come the end of this season he is into his final 12 months. Some might say "oh that is six or seven months away yet", but six or seven months ago there was lots of talk of him extending last season and that did not happen.

[Charly]

Oh... Agreed then. Apart from the bit about Nat...

[Doc_Piptorious]

Oh... Agreed then. Apart from the bit about Nat...

Ah Nat, the sweet prince. Without him we would have little to disagree strongly about.