The forwards - where are they?

[redhorizon]

At the start of the season - most feared/potent forward line in Europe, but recently only scoring 5 goals between them in 7 games and 3 of those came against LASK.
Should we go 4-4-2 which allows our MF to be much stronger?

[Doc_Piptorious]

At the start of the season - most feared/potent forward line in Europe, but recently only scoring 5 goals between them in 7 games and 3 of those came against LASK.
Should we go 4-4-2 which allows our MF to be much stronger?

As with any issues we have in the centre or at the back, I think our issues ( great to be calling what has us one point off the top that ) are more tactical/systematic in nature than they are personnel based.


That is not to say that we could not upgrade upon a few players, but think the current quality within the squad would shine more with a few tweaks to our set up.

Been banging the set up is causing us to appear a tad unbalanced drum sunce last season and some nine months into using the new set up we still look off with it.


We seem to have decided that we want to go with a certain set up but then not full committed to it in terms of the type of player needed for each role and instead are trying to make the players we have fit the system or rather make their roles fit it.

If you look at most teams when they try an inverted FB or even a pushed up CB, when they are on the ball their backlinelooks something like


--------------GK---------------
----DF-------DF-------DF-----


and when off the ball and being pressed the back line becomes


--------------GK--------------
DF-------DF-------DF-----DF


So nice and balanced.

City did this when they did the inverted Full back thing with Cancelo and again when they stopped inverting a full back but instead got a CB, often Stones, to be the one that overloaded the midfield.


So regardless of whether they were turning a midfield three into a midfield four or a four into a five, their backline balance stayed the exact same and it did not change positionally whether it was a FB or CB overloading the middle.

They also had the guy that was the defender joining the midfield being one that had a high workrate regardless of any other qualities he had so that way they not only overloaded the centre, they outworked the other team there too.


Now look at us.


TAA goes into the MF slot, he does not have a high workrate so straight away our "overload" is not taking advanatage of having four in the centre to the other team's three or two and straight away allowing them to use less players in the centre to match the workrate of our four and also allowing them to create overloads on our flanks as they do not need to divert a player into the centre to counter our four guys there.

But the biggest issue in my eyes is the balance of our backline when we are on the ball.

City's backline when on the ball is one that allows that trio to push left of right easily to accomadate a player dropping back.


Our back line when on the ball looks, when viewed using heat maps and the like, more like



--------------GK---------------
---------DF-------DF-------DF

So the backline is playing like a RCB, LCB and LB positionally with a big gap where a RB should go.

We are also still expecting the LB to get down the flank to we look even more unbalanced along with all three in that back line effectively each having to cover their own role when we are on the ball but when we lose the ball each of those defenders has to be ready to move to their right and basically take the position that would normally be the remit of the guy to their right (plus the LB is then having to lash back to try and be a LCB)


TAA is then not busting a gut to get back to the RB slot to allow a natural balance to occur but nor is he pushing fast to cover whomever is our 6 on the day if the 6 moves back to cover at RB (as both MacAllister and Endo have been doing) so the right sided 8, usually Szobo, is having to be the one that fills the space left by the 6 and TAA just continues to basically have a free role and roams. Sometimes he is in a position from doing so to make a good tackle and sometimes he is moving too close to one of his own players and leaving spaces on our right side of midfield and on our right flank.


Does seem to me if we really want to continue giving TAA a free role that we need to play with three mobile CBs and no LB so that our back line on the ball is RCB, CB, LCB and a natural DM in the 6 role then can push backwards in a straight line to coiver a space when the RCB needs to go to RB or the LCB needs to go to LB. Basically a slight variation of the City option of having a CB being the one that moves forward and drops back.

To my eyes our current set up requires world class in almost every postion across the back line and midfield but also very high levels of both workrate and physical attributes.

Again look at City and how they set up at the back and in the middle when using their inverted/box set up and when they have close to a full squad fit. Almost every player is both world class and brings the workrate.

But when City stumble a bit by their standards, like they are now, it is because they are still trying to persist with the same set up but without the same level of workrate and class the set up needs to truly work.

IMO for all that of course, but for me we either need to bring in the right sort of players to suit the box set up and if we are not willing to do that then we need to revert to a set up that suits the players we currently have.


I also think the box set up is one that needs players to be replaced more often (unless they are genetic freaks) as it is one that requires a lot more wear and tear on certain positions and one that requires players to be "switched on" to a greater degree.

[rudedog]

In the recent past, we've been blessed with forwards who possess moments individual brilliance. Often, these pieces of outrageous skill would be the difference maker in tight games (or games we probably deserved less in).

The forward line we have is all capable of these moments but unfortunately, all seem to be out of form at the same time.

[redhorizon]

If TAA revels in being in MF, let him be in MF. Having 4-4-2 allows to have that double pivot in MF and with Gomez being the replacement RB.
Having 2 upfront at the moment will allow players like DOM to be more creative, and give more opportunity to Salah, who is less wasteful

[Doc_Piptorious]

If TAA revels in being in MF, let him be in MF. Having 4-4-2 allows to have that double pivot in MF and with Gomez being the replacement RB.
Having 2 upfront at the moment will allow players like DOM to be more creative, and give more opportunity to Salah, who is less wasteful

So who are the midfield duo in that scenario?


MacAllister and TAA in the centre with Diaz and Szobo being the widemen?


Salah and Nunez up front?



Personally think we would be utterly overrun game after game with TAA in a two man midfield.


Or is your 442 one that sees the midfield four play as a diamond so that we have no widemen? An AM at the tip of the diamond and a DM at the base with 8s in the middle?


Or the midfeld four in it plays like a box? Still no wideplayers but two banks of two in the centre?



Just trying to picture your set up in my head.

[Mr Pink]

I think the Jota injury is a huge loss, and more than just what he gives on the pitch- when we had the 5 of them available, Salah knew he’d be playing 90 minutes and the other 2 starting knew they’d be playing around 60- and with the 5 subs, there’s no issue changing 2 of your attackers, no matter which way the game is going. So they can empty their tank over 60 min, and then we have 2 other guys of the same quality coming on for 30 min.

But now if 2 come off, we’re bringing on an extra midfielder. There must be a sense of trying to be able to go for 90 min if needed, rather than knowing you have 60 min and going full tilt for that.