PGMOL and refereeing

[Mark79]

This is very fishy. Liverpool are the only club who are limited to such a select band of the same group of officials on rotation for all their games.

We already know there's statistical evidence that a number of this group referee Liverpool very differently to other teams.

Why is there a larger pool of refs that get to officiate all of the other teams, including the rest of the top 6, but not Liverpool?

Why are Liverpool restricted to this limited group (Teirney, Taylor, Oliver, Attwell, Brooks, Kavanagh, Madley) every season?

[ame]https://twitter.com/BassTunedToRed/status/1787814536587661763[/ame]

[calvoboy]

The only weird one of the five listed is Graham Scott, who is a Swindon fan. Jarred Gillett is a Liverpool fan, and the other three are from the area and never referee us or Everton (so clearly support one or the other)

[S-RED]

This is very fishy. Liverpool are the only club who are limited to such a select band of the same group of officials on rotation for all their games.

We already know there's statistical evidence that a number of this group referee Liverpool very differently to other teams.

Why is there a larger pool of refs that get to officiate all of the other teams, including the rest of the top 6, but not Liverpool?

Why are Liverpool restricted to this limited group (Teirney, Taylor, Oliver, Attwell, Brooks, Kavanagh, Madley) every season?

https://twitter.com/BassTunedToRed/s...14536587661763

Why are Liverpool restricted to this limited group (Teirney, Taylor, Oliver, Attwell, Brooks, Kavanagh, Madley) every season?


because they are on the off-shore citygroup payroll

[Craig_H]

I entirely think some refs are subconsciously biased. It’s human nature. If you’re into football and grow up in a football city like Manchester or Liverpool, you can’t be entirely indifferent to the clubs from those cities. On some level, you will have some sort of feeling towards them. It’d be impossible not to.

That being said, I don’t really buy that they’re corrupt. You can name any referee you think is “corrupt” against us, and I’ll bet they will have given us a major decision at some point. And if they’re consciously corrupt or anti-LFC, I can’t see how that would happen.

Many of them are utterly ****e though, that much I will agree with.

Ditching VAR (as in, the technology) isn’t the answer though. If you have technology available to help make correct decisions, not using it is somewhat backward. It’d be a bit like removing power steering from cars. It makes no sense. The problem is the interpretation from the absolute bellends who are using it.

[Le Chef]

The only weird one of the five listed is Graham Scott, who is a Swindon fan. Jarred Gillett is a Liverpool fan, and the other three are from the area and never referee us or Everton (so clearly support one or the other)

Bit like cough, cough Anthony Taylor from Manchester but always gets the Manc games !

[Mark79]

I entirely think some refs are subconsciously biased. It’s human nature. If you’re into football and grow up in a football city like Manchester or Liverpool, you can’t be entirely indifferent to the clubs from those cities. On some level, you will have some sort of feeling towards them. It’d be impossible not to.

That being said, I don’t really buy that they’re corrupt. You can name any referee you think is “corrupt” against us, and I’ll bet they will have given us a major decision at some point. And if they’re consciously corrupt or anti-LFC, I can’t see how that would happen.

Many of them are utterly ****e though, that much I will agree with.

Ditching VAR (as in, the technology) isn’t the answer though. If you have technology available to help make correct decisions, not using it is somewhat backward. It’d be a bit like removing power steering from cars. It makes no sense. The problem is the interpretation from the absolute bellends who are using it.

I think there’s absolutely both conscious and unconscious bias at play in the decision making we see. As for brown paper bags, I don’t know. But PGMOL refs on the UAE payroll when the UAE effectively own a PL club, is extremely suspicious.

If we assume that some officials are acting corruptly (in whatever form), I wouldn’t expect all of their major decisions to be uniformly corrupt in favour/against certain teams. There’d have to be some level of discretion at least some of the time. The odd example of a major call going in an opposed team’s favour wouldn’t be definitive proof of impartiality.

[Craig_H]

I think there’s absolutely both conscious and unconscious bias at play in the decision making we see. As for brown paper bags, I don’t know. But PGMOL refs on the UAE payroll when the UAE effectively own a PL club, is extremely suspicious.

If we assume that some officials are acting corruptly (in whatever form), I wouldn’t expect all of their major decisions to be uniformly corrupt in favour/against certain teams. There’d have to be some level of discretion at least some of the time. The odd example of a major call going in an opposed team’s favour wouldn’t be definitive proof of impartiality.

I take your points. But if they’re on the payroll of the UAE & actually ARE corrupt, some of their decisions against us would’ve been beyond obvious. I struggle to believe people would not even make it slightly subtle, if they were indeed on the take. It’s just be too stupid.

[Kenneth]

Unless they’re on the take from gambling syndicates

[Cerbie]

I take your points. But if they’re on the payroll of the UAE & actually ARE corrupt, some of their decisions against us would’ve been beyond obvious. I struggle to believe people would not even make it slightly subtle, if they were indeed on the take. It’s just be too stupid.

They are on the payroll of the UAE Pro League, they are paid directly by that league to visit and officiate, not via the PGMOL. That’s clearly open to abuse and begs the question what are they treated to whilst they are there?

I suspect the officials all have their own little limited companies and are maxing out their pension pots for when they retire and diverting the rest to the shareholders.

Even if they aren’t corrupt, the unconscious bias a nice little earner like that can generate is off the charts.

Then factor in that City’s owner Sheikh Mansour and the head of the UAE FA that run the Pro League, Sheikh Hamdan are brothers! They both hold government positions, with Mansour being more senior as deputy PM, Minister of Presidential affairs and a member of the supreme petroleum council, that controls ADNOC and the energy sector in the UAE.

City’s owner has significant influence over the head of the UAE league paying PGMOL officials to work for the UAE Pro League. That’s a clear conflict of interest and one that PGMOL should put a stop to immediately.

[Paul12]

...I suspect the officials all have their own little limited companies and are maxing out their pension pots for when they retire and diverting the rest to the shareholders....

What has this to do with whether a person is corrupt? What rational person would not max out their pension pot if they could?

[Cerbie]

What has this to do with whether a person is corrupt? What rational person would not max out their pension pot if they could?

It is absolutely the sensible thing to do, but it also hides future income. When asked how much they earned they can quote a lower PAYE sum. Distributing the money to other shareholders is the same. If it is a UK company, accounts will be filed with Companies House. If it isn’t UK based we won’t have a clue what reward they received.

The fact it isn’t paid via PGMOL is what I have a problem with, it is not auditable within the governance framework of the Premier League.

The familial connection to City is just ridiculous.

[labourRed]

It is absolutely the sensible thing to do, but it also hides future income. When asked how much they earned they can quote a lower PAYE sum. Distributing the money to other shareholders is the same. If it is a UK company, accounts will be filed with Companies House. If it isn’t UK based we won’t have a clue what reward they received.

The fact it isn’t paid via PGMOL is what I have a problem with, it is not auditable within the governance framework of the Premier League.

The familial connection to City is just ridiculous.

I'm staggered it is allowed under the guise of increasing international exposure and improving them as refs. Utter nonsense, it has to do with money and certainly integrity doesn't come into it.

[Paul12]

I'm staggered it is allowed under the guise of increasing international exposure and improving them as refs. Utter nonsense, it has to do with money and certainly integrity doesn't come into it.

1 I agree that the existing rules to prevent actual and potential conflicts of interest are child-like in their innocence. They need to be rewritten by a cynical, world-wise *******.

2. I think the research that Tompkins has done is exactly the sort of thing PGMOL needs to be doing to try to search out anomalies, coincidences and things that don't pass the smell test.

3 In my opinion the level of inconsistency in EPL refereeing decisions is unacceptably high, and could quite easily be reduced significantly - although it might need the simplification of - and adjustments to - a few rules.

4 There are a few rules that create absurdity, and they need to be sorted out. Referees have enough on their plates without having to accept the blame for accurately enforcing daft rules.

5 Some referees are not good enough for the level at which they are being asked to ref. The system needs to get better at identifying them and weeding them out.

6 A huge amount of the noise about bad reffing decisions is actually misinformed or ignorant. 'Experts' on programmes like MoTD are guilty of this in bucket loads and it would help things greatly if a way of calling them out on it could be found.

7 Notwithstanding all the above, reffing involves big judgement - and often subjective - calls and that means there will ALWAYS be disagreements over reffing decisions.


But I would stake my life on UK referees NOT being corrupt.

[Cerbie]

1 I agree that the existing rules to prevent actual and potential conflicts of interest are child-like in their innocence. They need to be rewritten by a cynical, world-wise *******.

2. I think the research that Tompkins has done is exactly the sort of thing PGMOL needs to be doing to try to search out anomalies, coincidences and things that don't pass the smell test.

3 In my opinion the level of inconsistency in EPL refereeing decisions is unacceptably high, and could quite easily be reduced significantly - although it might need the simplification of - and adjustments to - a few rules.

4 There are a few rules that create absurdity, and they need to be sorted out. Referees have enough on their plates without having to accept the blame for accurately enforcing daft rules.

5 Some referees are not good enough for the level at which they are being asked to ref. The system needs to get better at identifying them and weeding them out.

6 A huge amount of the noise about bad reffing decisions us actually misinformed or ignorant. 'Experts' on programmes like MoTD are guilty of this in bucket loads and it would help things greatly if a way of calling them out on it could be found.

7 Notwithstanding all the above, reffing involves big judgement - and often subjective - calls and that means there will ALWAYS be disagreements over reffing decisions.


But I would stake my life on UK referees NOT being corrupt.

I agree with 99% of that & I’d add being consistent with the refs who are allowed to officiate our games particularly compared to the Mancs and other top 6 sides.

I’m not staking my life on any of the PL refs doing anything good or bad!!