Novak Djokovic

[Chris]

You see it as a mental lapse from Federer; I see it as mental strength from Nadal.

When Djokovic saved the first match point in the semi-final, was that mental weakness on Federer's part? Or simply awe-inspiring fortitude from Djokovic that allowed him to go for such an all-or-nothing shot on the brink of defeat?

Dont really see Federer netting a simple shot as mental strength from Nadal but each to their own. Its clear as day he has problems in the head v Nadal.

This sums him up v Nadal on big points.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gcERnTBQK0"]Federer vs nadal Madrid 2011 (last game; break wasted by roger) - YouTube[/ame]

1.30, break point, second serve, woeful return straight in to the net. Same theme every time they play now.

[JohnDoe]

Nadal's game style just kills Federer, while it's true that Federer's mental strength breaks down at times when facing Nadal, it's a result of his inability to get on top of him. His backhand isn't solid defensively and Nadal has a monster of a left handed forehand which is just perfect in attacking it, that's just one example. That same Nadal forehand isn't as effective against Djokovic because he has the best backhand in the game and can dominate him in a baseline battle.

Playstyle wise, Nadal is a bad match up for Federer and Djokovic is a bad matchup for Nadal. The mental wall of the player on the bad end of the matchup has formed as a result of this, but it's not the initial cause IMO.

[Arn]

The more difficult opponent you are up against the more difficult strokes you must make.

That means that Nadal for example will make more unforced errors against Djokovic because he must take more risks and go for the lines more.

It is the same when Federer play Nadal. It can look like easy mistakes but many of them is because he know that a normal return/stroke isn't enough.

You can also see that Nadal really don't believe that he will win against Djokovic. Very negative tactic from him standing several feet/yards behind the baseline. Federer have the same problem when he play Nadal.

The mental game between players is a part of the game.

If a player would make a list of who he think is the most difficult player to play against then Djokovic would probably have Federer top of his list ahead of Nadal. Federer would probably put Nadal ahead of Djokovic.

[Chris]

Playstyle wise, Nadal is a bad match up for Federer and Djokovic is a bad matchup for Nadal. The mental wall of the player on the bad end of the matchup has formed as a result of this, but it's not the initial cause IMO.

Of course, he got in his head after the French Opens, dented him even more when he finally beat him at Wimbledon then broke him in the Australian Open where he cried after it. He's got no chance of ever beating him in a slam again unless theres some extreme circumstances.

[Neil Young]

Well, of course it's both mental, physical, technical and tactical. But I think by definition, given their playing level and records, none of them are mentally weak. Physically I assume they're all much on a level - perhaps Federer isn't quite there any more, I don't know.

All I'm saying is I agree with the point John Doe makes about style of play. The different technical balances between each pair of players affects mentality more than the other way round. None of them 'crumble' - they all know they have to raise it on the big points. It's about the reality of doing it - e.g. hitting the line, going that bit wider on a pass, that bit harder on a serve, not whether any of them, effectively, starts bottling it.

However what this is really all about to me is that, unless you really know your stuff, it's a lot easier to speculate on a sportsman's state of mind than it is about the technical details. That's why football "experts" like Paul Merson talk about players being "disappointed with that" or "lacking passion" - it's because they don't have a ****ing clue!

I don't want to sound too Arn-ish here but I doubt Benitez analyse football like that.

[Chris]

None of them 'crumble'

Federer has done though. Roland Garros 2008, beaten before he'd even set foot on the court and played like an absolute clown in the final losing 6-1, 6-3, 6-0.

Australian Open, loads of break points in the 3rd set, throws them away, double faults to hand Nadal the set. Theres loads of examples, of course not every big point is lost with bad play from him, he wins some, theres plenty of sensational play from Nadal but he does tend to fall apart when it really matters v Rafa now and in the last few years.

Sampras said two years ago “It’s not like he's getting killed by the kid,” said Sampras to a group of reporters at the SAP Open. “But it’s just not happening. Mentally, I think he’s in his head. I think we all know that.”

But Boris Becker sums it up best two years ago "Federer is motivated, he radiates joy when playing. This was seen in Melbourne. He was superior to his opponents, played freely. And then came Nadal. I can see it, he visibly cramps up."

[Neil Young]

Yeah? And why?

It's like Federer has never beaten Nadal. He has.

Saying he's mentally weak doesn't explain anything. It's like saying he hits the ball out.

I'm not saying it's not possible and I'm very happy to agree it's part of it but to put it all down to that just seems like guesswork masquerading as (psycho)analysis. Of course sports psychology is important but unless you're Steve Peters and you've worked with someone then I think it's just facile to say "it's all in the mind". OK, thanks, that's very clear - so basically we have no real explanation of why Federer has difficulty with Nadal's power and spin...

These blokes aren't idiots and they aren't poor. Arn say Djokovic do what he can to win and I'd be very surprised if the other two didn't feel the same way. So they can afford the best sports psychologists in the world. Yet Federer loses more than he wins to them both.

Like I've said before, maybe they're just a bit better - a bit younger, a bit stronger, a bit faster. He knows it and that makes it worse.

[Chris]

Who's saying Nadal only wins because Federer is mentally weak?

Not sure what's so radical or outrageous about me saying he's broken down mentally v Rafa before, he is human, not a robot and getting beaten when he's used to hammering everyone all the time wore him down and now he struggles to cope when playing him. I've put up a video, examples of matches, opinions of former greats whereas you just seem to be like "yeah? well you are wrong".

It works the other way too, over the years he's walked on to court knowing he cant lose v Andy Roddick. Being a far better player helped but the mental dents he's made in Roddick were evident in that tie break at Wimbledon in 09, one of the worst chokes ive ever seen.

With all due respect I'll go with Boris and Sampras on this.

[Neil Young]

That's your prerogative of course but I still don't see how they've actually explained anything.

Just out of interest, has either Becker or Sampras ever said they regularly lost to someone because they weren't up to it mentally?

[Neil Young]

OK, I had a conversation yesterday evening with someone who knows a bit about psychology and here is a proper explanation of this mental crumbling idea.

When you learn a motor skill, such as any particular tennis shot, the major area of the brain used is somewhere in the frontal cortex - the conscious, 'thinking' part of the brain.

Practice, such as 'grooving' your forehand or your backhand, transfers the thought process involved to the hypothalamus so that the motor skill becomes automatic, i.e. you do it without thinking (or rather without being consciously of all the minutiae of all the movements and coordination involved). It's the same with any motor skill, like learning to drive or riding a bike or anything.

When under pressure, the tendency is to concentrate harder on what you're doing. This means that you engage the frontal cortex again, as you did when you were learning how to perform the skill rather than the part of the brain you use when you have mastered that skill.

So you end up performing the skill like a novice.

[mick the click]

In other words 'Don't think about it, just do it.'

Makes sense I suppose.

[red g]

OK, I had a conversation yesterday evening with someone who knows a bit about psychology and here is a proper explanation of this mental crumbling idea.

When you learn a motor skill, such as any particular tennis shot, the major area of the brain used is somewhere in the frontal cortex - the conscious, 'thinking' part of the brain.

Practice, such as 'grooving' your forehand or your backhand, transfers the thought process involved to the hypothalamus so that the motor skill becomes automatic, i.e. you do it without thinking (or rather without being consciously of all the minutiae of all the movements and coordination involved). It's the same with any motor skill, like learning to drive or riding a bike or anything.

When under pressure, the tendency is to concentrate harder on what you're doing. This means that you engage the frontal cortex again, as you did when you were learning how to perform the skill rather than the part of the brain you use when you have mastered that skill.

So you end up performing the skill like a novice.

So he bottles it?

[G]

6 ****ing pages about this lad and not a single picture of his missus.

shame on you all