The Rugby Thread

[Zapater]

Plenty of gripes with that. Said I wasn't going to post, but Aaron Smith not being there is ridiculous. So I had to. Not even convinced Murray had a better decade than Perenara.

[Irishnev]

Plenty of gripes with that. Said I wasn't going to post, but Aaron Smith not being there is ridiculous. So I had to. Not even convinced Murray had a better decade than Perenara.

Too many Saffers for me

[Buzzo]

He wont be the last. Signs of dementia at 42 FFS

Steve Thompson in group of ex-rugby union internationals to sue for brain damage


Rugby World Cup winner Steve Thompson and seven other former players claim the sport has left them with permanent brain damage - and are in the process of starting a claim against the game's authorities for negligence.

Every member of the group has recently been diagnosed with the early signs of dementia, and they say repeated blows to the head are to blame.

Thompson, 42, played in every England match when they won the 2003 World Cup, but says: "I can't remember any of those games. It's frightening."

It is understood a letter of claim, amounting to millions of pounds in damages, will be sent next week to the governing bodies for English and Welsh rugby and World Rugby - and a group class action could follow.

It is the first legal move of its kind in world rugby and, if successful, could force change to the way the game is played.

Lawyers for the group suggest another 80 former players between the ages of 25 and 55 are showing symptoms and have serious concerns.

World Rugby told BBC Sport: "While not commenting on speculation, World Rugby takes player safety very seriously and implements injury-prevention strategies based on the latest available knowledge, research and evidence."

In response to reports that legal action was planned, the Rugby Football Union said it was "declining to comment" because it has "not had any formal or informal approaches, with any legal documents being served".

The Welsh Rugby Union has also been approached for a response.

Former hooker Thompson played 195 times for Northampton Saints before moving to France to play for Brive. He won 73 England caps, and three for the British and Irish Lions, in a nine-year international career.

He first retired in 2007 because of a serious neck injury but was given the all-clear to return, before being forced to retire again in December 2011 with the same problem.

Thompson, former England team-mate Michael Lipman, ex-Wales international Alix Popham and five other retired players are the first group to agree to - and have - testing.

Thompson says his condition is so progressed he cannot remember anything that happened in those 2003 World Cup games.

"It's like I'm watching the game with England playing and I can see me there - but I wasn't there, because it's not me," he said.

"It's just bizarre. People talk about stories, and since the World Cup I've talked to the lads that were there, and you pick up stories, and then you can talk about it, but it's not me being there, it's not me doing it, because it's just gone."

Thompson is convinced constant head knocks during matches and training are to blame.

"When we first started going full-time in the mid-1990s, training sessions could quickly turn into full contact," he said.

"There was one session when the scrummaging hadn't gone quite right and they made us do a hundred live scrums. When it comes to it, we were like a bit of meat, really.

"The whole point of us doing this is to look after the young players coming through. I don't want rugby to stop. It's been able to give us so much, but we just want to make it safer. It can finish so quickly, and suddenly you've got your whole life in front of you."

Thompson, who has four children, is frank about his fears for the future and open about some dark thoughts.

"When you are there alone, the number of times you just think to yourself it's probably easier if you go, if I'm not here," he said.

"You start to think, it's not right to put them through that. That's the difficult side to it."

I don't want to be a burden on my family - Popham
What is CTE & how can it be diagnosed?
All eight players to have come forward so far have been diagnosed by neurologists at King's College, London, with early onset dementia and probable Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE).

CTE is the disease discovered by Dr Bennet Omalu in American football player Mike Webster, and the subject of the film Concussion starring Will Smith. In 2011, a group of former American football players started a class action against the NFL and won a settlement worth about $1bn (£700m).

CTE can develop when the brain is subjected to numerous small blows or rapid movements - sometimes known as sub-concussions - and is associated with symptoms such as memory loss, depression and progressive dementia.

The disease can only be diagnosed in a brain after death, but some experts believe if history of exposure is evaluated, it is reasonable to conclude that the risk increases. The embryonic nature of the science around the issue could play a key part in the success or failure of the overall case.

It has been found in the brains of dozens of former NFL players, as well as a handful of deceased footballers, including former West Bromwich Albion and England player Jeff Astle. A re-examination of his brain in 2014 found he had died from CTE.

Sub-concussions cannot be detected on the pitch or in any post-match examination.

Dr Ann McKee, from Boston University, is the leading neurologist in CTE and was instrumental in bringing about change in the NFL.

She and others have faced scepticism within sport, from those who believe more research is needed before further changes are introduced.

"There's clearly a problem," she told the BBC.

"We don't know the magnitude of the problem, but as long as we insist that there is no problem, we'll never get to the bottom of it.

"We're just denying it and prolonging it and making sure that as many rugby players as possible get CTE."

So how could the claim be proved?
If the case progresses to court, the group must prove the governing bodies have been guilty of negligence.

Richard Boardman, from law firm Rylands, is leading the action.

"We are now in a position where we believe the governing bodies across the rugby world are liable for failing to adequately protect their players on this particular issue," he said.

"Depending on how many people come forward, the case could be worth tens of millions, maybe even hundreds of millions.

"Right now we're representing over 100 former players but we expect many more to get in contact."

Dr Willie Stewart, who with his team at Glasgow University has been leading research around dementia in football, is confident there is an issue in rugby union.

"There is no question if you look at the data across all the sports in all the regions whether they be football, rugby, American football, I've looked at brains from people from all these different sports.

"The difficulty we have is gathering enough experience from former rugby players to be able to say with certainty, but I think you would be foolish to ignore it. "

The issue of concussion in sport has been debated extensively over the past few years. The links between heading a football and degenerative brain disease have even forced rule changes at youth level.

In England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, children aged 11 and under are no longer allowed to head the ball in training. There are also limits to heading frequency at higher age group levels.

At senior level, former professionals have called for more research and better player welfare after the recent death of England World Cup winner Nobby Stiles, and following the news that Stiles' 1966 team-mate and Manchester United legend Sir Bobby Charlton is suffering from the disease.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55201237

[Cormack74]

https://twitter.com/worldrugby/statu...59133741641731

Now lads.......

A few I’d argue against - maybe The Beast, North, Parisse and Ben Smith

Agreed.

How did they arrive at that lot?

[Cormack74]

He wont be the last. Signs of dementia at 42 FFS



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55201237

Steve Thompson retired once due to injury, got a pretty substantial payout (£0.5m?) then went back to it a year or two later. Possibly a misjudgement on his part . . .

[Zapater]

I don't really get Thompson's point. If it wasn't for rugby he wouldn't be anyone - it's pretty obvious that repeated blows to the head can't be good for you and there's a risk of issues when it comes to contact sports. He wasn't complaining when turning out week after week. Ban all contact sports then? Training methods need to be improved (and I'm sure they have) and perhaps introducing of regular MRIs etc.

It's not like there is usually any clear idea of it during a career, like Meldrick Taylor boxing on when he could hardly speak, the people renewing his licence should have been shot.

[Buzzo]

He’s got early onset dementia at 42. You have to feel some sympathy at that. My mates dad has it (ex pro footballer) and it is a grim disease, slowly stripping away his personality.

I doubt he was briefed on this during his career. Or told that it was a risk. As the article shows there is not enough research yet.

Dr Willie Stewart, who with his team at Glasgow University has been leading research around dementia in football, is confident there is an issue in rugby union.

"There is no question if you look at the data across all the sports in all the regions whether they be football, rugby, American football, I've looked at brains from people from all these different sports.

"The difficulty we have is gathering enough experience from former rugby players to be able to say with certainty, but I think you would be foolish to ignore it. "

It’s at the heart of the story of Bennet Omalu’s research. Ultimately the money involved in these games (Rugby, Football, NFL) means it is an unpalatable truth.

[Zapater]

Of course it's a bit rough, but we can't save the world. Well it's pretty obvious that selling brain damage isn't great among a target audience when trying to market a sport. I'll always go back to boxing, we've known about dementia pugilistica or 'punch drunk syndrome' for over a hundred years. 'CTE' is a new, more in depth term and research into thing.

No one talks about it, but everyone is very aware of it, doesn't seem to be stopping kids from boxing nor audiences watching it. Seeing that boxing is in a lucrative state with mass audiences, I'm not sure that rugby, football or any other sport will take a different route. Sure the heading at kids level etc is a start, but will anything really ever change?

Mentioned it in other threads, but I've read to death about it because of my family history (one grandmother had Alzheimer's and the other dementia) combined with several years of boxing in addition to heading footballs and a bad concussion from a cricket ball etc. I've accepted that if I can't speak in 10 years it'll possibly be because of my life choices - I don't think there's anything sinister in it, it's a byproduct. For me, all sports save and make far more lives than they damage.

I think it's important to look into what has happened in the past to make the future safer, but the horse has bolted. It's like obese people wanting to sue Coca-Cola for their obesity. Come on, it's pretty obvious consuming a ****load of sugar can't be good, no? If your ankle ligaments go a couple times, it's simple that there's an issue there. In similar fashion repeated concussions can't be good for the brain, can they? I know these diseases have really bad and inconsistent issues but he seems to remember the training sessions pretty well for someone who can't remember any games.

[Buzzo]

I take your point, however, I dont 100% agree. He is not arguing about the rules of the game. Nor is he talking about match day.

He was a front row forward, so the number of collisions he had will be far more than any other player, for example he talks about them getting beasted on a day training for England and having to set 100 scrums in a session. As with all CTE it is the repitition rather than the one off. So the reality is that whilst match day is an area that receives attention and care, training isnt and that is where the damage is done.

Though it was obviously first considered in boxing, a heavy weight boxer doesnt train for a title fight by getting slugged 100 times on the chin. It is the sports where numerous repetitive mild traumatic brain injuries occur.

As with football, it is the frequency of the blow, and mainly in training. For example my mates Dad was a pro footballer in the 70's and he was a defender, so he would again head the ball in training sessions upwards of 100 times.

The duty of care that has been neglected has been to management of the load during training, and that is something that is only coming into play in Rugby just now where protecting the interests of the player and managing concussions and head injuries is now a focus.

The rub, really, is how far into affecting the end product of the game, do the governing bodies want to go to be able to protect both the spectacle and the players welfare. My son plays Rugby, and at 9 they have introduced tackling, so it is something I am keen to keep an eye on, as my desire to see him run in (or rumble over more likely) with the ball at Murrayfield is tempered by the physicality already on show.

[Zapater]

Michael Lipman: 'If I knew then what I know now, I'd have been a lot more careful'

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/09/michael-lipman-if-i-knew-then-what-i-know-now-id-have-been-a-lot-more-careful

The former England flanker has mild dementia and probable CTE and says the memory lapses and mood swings may be hard for him, but are even harder for his wife Frances

Andy Bull
Wed 9 Dec 2020 06.00 GMT

It’s been two months since Michael Lipman was diagnosed with mild dementia, two weeks since he was diagnosed with probable chronic traumatic encephalopathy. He feels in limbo, wonders if what’s happening would make more sense if he was an old man. “I’d think I’d be like: ‘Yeah, OK,’ you know?” But he is only 40. He has no idea what the rest of his life is going to be like, and that scares him. So he’s doing what he can. “Taking exercise, trying to eat well, limiting alcohol, just try and treat yourself well, and keep your mind ticking over by doing crosswords and sudokus, studying, anything to help you train the brain.”

There are days when Lipman doesn’t want to get out of bed. “If you go outside you might embarrass yourself, might do something, or say something, that’s going to get you in trouble. I feel like your bedroom is your safe zone, you know? And when I’m in there no one can do anything to me.”


Alix Popham: ‘We knew our bodies would be in bits. We had no clue our brains were'

In his playing days, Lipman was full of life, “always out and about, always up and at them”. He was a busy, bustling openside flanker. Born in England, raised in Australia, he played for Bristol, Bath, and then went back to the Melbourne Rebels. He was good, too, played 10 times for England, and was a key player in the Bath team that won the Challenge Cup in 2008. Some people will remember him as the player who resigned from Bath when he got caught up in a drug-testing scandal. Others will remember, too, how much he gave to the club, that he was picked as the community player of the year because of all the work he did around town.

Lipman’s speech can be a little hesitant, and uncertain. Often he’ll pause while he’s searching for his words, and his wife, Frances, is there, off-screen, helping him through the interview. “I think you’ve noticed during this chat that my speech sometimes is quite inhibited,” he says. “It’s a real issue for me because I love having a chat.” There are other symptoms. “I’m irritable. Incredibly irritable. I’m impatient. Extremely impatient. And I get to a stage where I’m that frustrated where I just can’t handle certain things and I’ll walk out of the room. Then your mood swings go up and down like a bloody yo-yo, sometimes you go: ‘Oh I’m happy as hell,’ and then you’re as bloody down as anything.”

There is an old interview with Lipman from 2009, which he gave after he had suffered several concussions in a short space of time. In it, he says he had passed the mandatory cognitive tests, but still felt disorientated and after taking advice from a neurologist decided he should take some time off. He said then that he didn’t want to take a chance “not when the risks are of brain damage, memory loss, the shakes and all those sort of things”. He later admitted that around this time, two experts told him in private that he should retire. In the end, he played on for three more years. And now here he is.

If it’s hard for him, it’s harder for Frances. “You reckon it’s a daily battle for me? My God, it’s a daily battle for her. Some days I’m really good and then she remembers: ‘Yeah this is the man I love.’ And then there’s other times that are very testing. But the way she’s handling it is incredible. I couldn’t put up with me. No way.” I ask how long they have been together. “Five years,” he says, then corrects himself, “no, four years. And we’ve been married for – how long?” She tells him: “Three-and-a-half.” He’s embarrassed. “You see? I should get that right. Little things like that. I should know that, off the top of my head.”

When they met, he had finished playing and was working in real estate. She realises now that there were warning signs. He was having severe migraines, and they could not understand why. “We were just really confused for a long time,” Frances says. Because she hadn’t seen him play, it never really occurred to her that they might be linked to his rugby career. Then there were the mood swings. “I just never knew what person I was getting.” And his memory problems. He even forgot that she had already been married. “When Michael proposed to me I was still technically married to my ex, and I said: ‘I’ve really got to get my divorce in order now’ and he looked at me and said: ‘That’s really important information you should have told me earlier.’”

Frances remembers how she stared at him, that she could not understand why he didn’t remember such an important detail. She worried it was arrogance, “that I wasn’t important enough for him to listen to or remember things I would say”.

“There were all these little things,” Frances says, “and you couldn’t put your finger on any of them.” Then they got the diagnosis. “Now I’ve got a lot more understanding, and a lot more tolerance.” They have two children, a two-year-old and a nine-year-old. “The two-year-old is too young to understand, but my wife has had a chat with the nine-year-old about the mood swings,” he says. “She’s explained that it’s not personal, the impatience, the frustration. She’s very good at that, which helps. If my wife didn’t say anything, there would be arguments left, right, and centre.”

Outside of the house, there are. “There was an incident when Michael ended up going off at a local bartender,” Frances remembers. “It was very out of character, really embarrassing for the family, because we’d go there as a family all the time. And these are the little things we go through. And it’s really hard for Michael to talk about, because they’re not his proudest moments.” She starts to cry. “When we realised this was going to go public, we were so worried about how people were going to perceive Michael. His biggest fear is ‘people are going to think that I’m stupid or I’m dying’.”

But they keep talking, despite that, because they want to increase awareness about what they are going through, and help other families who might be suffering too. “Knowledge is power,” says Frances. “And if families of people who have played contact sport are able to recognise signs and symptoms, so they could maybe get help a lot earlier.” He agrees. “That’s the whole point,” he says. “We all love rugby, we all love sport. And ultimately we want our players to be safe. Or else they might not have a sport to play. And we want to keep our sport intact.”

He doesn’t regret his career, says he would do it all over if he could. “But if I knew then what I know now, in terms of how I’m feeling, and what my wife and family go through on a daily basis, I definitely would have been a hell of a lot more careful, and wouldn’t have done a lot of the things I did do. I wouldn’t have changed the way I played, but I certainly would have taken a lot more precautions than I did during my career. And I would have listened to my body a lot more than I did.”

Lipman remembers instances when he was concussed, and would find an excuse to go off to the blood bin “you’d get 10 minutes and that would help you” and then he’d go back on. “As a player, you’re not thinking straight, you’re always going to say: ‘I’m fine, I’m fine.’ I used to do it. You say whatever you need to say to get back on the field and help your friends. Because you’ve got a lot of adrenaline going, there’s a lot of pressure on yourself, and on the team, and you want to get back out there because that’s what you’re employed to do.” Ultimately, the players need to be protected from themselves, by administrators, coaches, medics, and the media.

By opening up about what he is going through, Lipman is doing his best to try and stop other players from making the same mistakes he did. He doesn’t say it, but you have to ask why the game was not able to do the same for him.

Another one for you, Buzzo. He's ****ed imo, only going to deteriorate. Slightly off topic, but I advise you watch the Freddie Roach HBO documentary that came out around 10 years ago. It's pretty interesting and shows how he lives a functional life with Parkinson's. Can't remember exactly but he even speaks about having tremors and early signs in his early 20s and continuing fighting for 5 years more anyway.

[Buzzo]

Another one for you, Buzzo. He's ****ed imo, only going to deteriorate. Slightly off topic, but I advise you watch the Freddie Roach HBO documentary that came out around 10 years ago. It's pretty interesting and shows how he lives a functional life with Parkinson's. Can't remember exactly but he even speaks about having tremors and early signs in his early 20s and continuing fighting for 5 years more anyway.

You can only see it getting worse (as in more cases) if anything with finishers etc you are ensuring that fatigue is less of an issue so the hits are hard for 80 mins.

I see Lewis Moody and Ben Kay are talking about monitoring training and reducing the amount of collision. Looking into player welfare at training is a must. Though I expect there to be some major rule changes in the next 2 - 3 years. I think they will find a solution.

The good thing about Rugby though, is it is capable as a sport of morphing whilst keeping what we all love about the game to the fore, and I think they can do so here. You don’t want to remove that physicality but you do want to protect players heads and brains.

Cheers for the tip on the doc, I’ve actually got a feeling I just saw that this is on iPlayer here.

[Buzzo]

Another story here. Interesting as it highlights the problem of the mentality required to get to the top (100% every tackle) but then illustrates the results in a young guy who at 40 should have a huge portion of his life to look forward to.

He has no memory of major events in his career.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55208227

Doctors say he has had 100,000 sub concussions in his time playing Rugby....

[Irishnev]

[ame="https://twitter.com/rugbyworldcup/status/1338459286058528771"]https://twitter.com/rugbyworldcup/status/1338459286058528771[/ame]

Hmmmm - bloody Scotland

[Buzzo]

Barely worth us showing up. Englands group may be more difficult than it would have been 15 years ago.

Zebo winding up Finn.

[ame]https://twitter.com/SimonZebo/status/1338456984610369537[/ame]

[Cormack74]

Yeah, getting Japan is a bit unhelpful TBH, they're only going to keep improving (and probably assimilating more New Zealanders into their team )