Italian Football

[Neil Young]

His arm was down by his side.

If it had hit a Liverpool player and the ref had awarded a penalty I reckon we'd be pretty upset about it.

[dww]

That's just opinion.

Also, it's wrong. As I said, what about the offside we got in the final? Or the foul by Kuyt in the build-up to Agger's goal in the semi-final?

I'm not saying the refs were perfect - the one in the final certainly wasn't - but we have to recognise that maybe we're not the best judges of referees at least when Liverpool are playing.

However the ref we had for the final has had complaints from Man United and Middlesborough before and I think he is a very continental style referee. I'm not sure if you should have any ability to influence the choice of referee for a game but I find it a less than wise decision to choose a referee whose style has been complained about consistantly by teams from the same country as one of the teams in the final.

I don't think that it was a conspiracy or anything but I did feel the reputation of English teams went before us on the night and that a few deciisions seemed premptive.

It was a perfectly fair goal though - much as it galls me to say it.

[loco_law]

I didn't bring the goal up in my rant because it could well have been called either way in my book. Not enough to bitch about, just a bummer.

I have since watched the match again, and purposely watching it as a neutral. He was biased, and not only did he make poor calls against us, but on a number of occassions made calls against us that were blatent Milan fouls!!! Even if you just take 5 of those, that is in essence a 10 foul turn around and could easily swing any game.

Neil, as for it "just being opinion", that's what this whole website is. Opinions.


Mine just happen to be right.

[Dhav]

From the BBC. (I quickly checked and the 2005 and current rules seem identical on the point of what defines handball - how referees have been told to "interpret" them may have altered):

In Fifa's Laws of the Game 2005, Law 12 says a free-kick or penalty will be awarded if a player "handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)".

Page 67 of the document gives "additional information for referees, assistant referees and fourth officials".

It adds: "Referees are reminded that deliberately handling the ball is normally punished only by a direct free-kick or penalty kick if the offence occurred inside the penalty area.

"A caution or dismissal is not normally required."

However, the document fails to describe what constitutes deliberate handball, which places the responsibility firmly on the referee and referees' assistants.

Former Premier League referee David Elleray said the referee's interpretation depends on whether the hand or arm is in an "unnatural" position at the point of contact.

David Elleray consults his assistant during a club "Referees look at two specifics - did the hand or arm go towards the ball or in a manner which would block the ball, or is the hand in a position where it would not normally be?" Elleray told BBC Sport.

"The challenging decisions are if the defending player spreads their arms to make themselves bigger.

"If the ball hits the arm then the referee must decide whether this action was to deliberately block the ball or whether the player has raised their arms to protect themselves - especially if the ball is hit at speed."

Interesting stuff mate - seems too much is left at the discretion of refs, which explains the inconsistency in decisions from some refs compared to others

His arm was down by his side.

If it had hit a Liverpool player and the ref had awarded a penalty I reckon we'd be pretty upset about it.

Unless of course our player is on the goal line and blocks a goal bound shot unintentionally with his hand in which case I'd consider it fair enough.

[-V-]

TOLD YOU GUYS-

Chievo Verona winger Franco Semioli is furious his team are going down after yesterday's 2-0 defeat by Catania.

The Flying Donkeys would have stayed up had Reggina, Siena and Parma not beaten Milan, Lazio and Empoli respectively.

"These results were already written. We already knew how it was going to go in the other stadiums," accused Semioli after the final whistle.

"Safety was only really in the balance here, at the Dall'Ara. I repeat, we already knew the other results. It was between Catania and us. You could have bet your life on it."

[Ron_Mexico]

We lost. The first goal wasn't handball. The rule is about intention, not gaining an unfair advantage.

The ref made some poor decisions and the timekeeping thing was very poor. To imply however that was why we lost is clutching at straws to say the least.

I notice you don't mention the linesman who flagged for offside even though Kaka' was onside and through on Reina with our defence caught hopelessly upfield.

It's disappointing but I really suggest you get over it.

I'm not sure if that was aimed at me.

I never said we lost because of the ref, I was pointing out a number of issues I had with his approach and questioned the legitimacy of his appointment.

Good on the linesman for flagging, well done. But the issue is the referee not the linesman

Thanks for the suggestion of getting over it, I'll give that a try

But I will freely discuss the ****eness of the ref if thats ok with you Neil, this being a football forum and all

[tomasjj]

Well, this might be the rule, but what about a hand infringing on play, in as hindering or making a goal, no matter the intention or position of the arm?

Refs usually blow for free kicks, penos and dish out cards if a defenders arm infringes on a play that would have become a goal for instance.

Pippos arm was close to his body when the ball hit him, so I have no massive problems with that decision. A goalbound shot hitting a defender standing on the goal line in the same manner, resulting in no goal - would that be interpreted differently? I suspect it would on quite a few occasions lead to a peno.

[Neil Young]

I'm not sure if that was aimed at me.

I never said we lost because of the ref, I was pointing out a number of issues I had with his approach and questioned the legitimacy of his appointment.

Good on the linesman for flagging, well done. But the issue is the referee not the linesman

Thanks for the suggestion of getting over it, I'll give that a try

But I will freely discuss the ****eness of the ref if thats ok with you Neil, this being a football forum and all

All right, mate, it wasn't really "aimed at" anyone but sorry if that's how it came across.

I haven't seen any evidence of collusion beyond various people's disagreeing with some of the decisions he made during the match and that's circumstantial at best.

[Neil Young]

Well, this might be the rule, but what about a hand infringing on play, in as hindering or making a goal, no matter the intention or position of the arm?

Refs usually blow for free kicks, penos and dish out cards if a defenders arm infringes on a play that would have become a goal for instance.

Pippos arm was close to his body when the ball hit him, so I have no massive problems with that decision. A goalbound shot hitting a defender standing on the goal line in the same manner, resulting in no goal - would that be interpreted differently? I suspect it would on quite a few occasions lead to a peno.

Well, it's just supposition, isn't it?

I'd suggest that refs sometimes give penalties for the "offence" you mention and sometimes they don't. I have no idea which happens more often.

I agree about the vagaries of the handball law - it's partly because it leaves it up to the referee to determine what was in the player's mind (i.e. did he intend to handball or not). I personally don't think it making it an offence to gain an advantage whether or not the handball is intentional is necessarily the right way to go since there would be a greater incentive than there is now to aim the ball at the defender's arm/hand, especially in the penalty area.

[Ron_Mexico]

All right, mate, it wasn't really "aimed at" anyone but sorry if that's how it came across.

I haven't seen any evidence of collusion beyond various people's disagreeing with some of the decisions he made during the match and that's circumstantial at best.

Alright Neil

I don't think there would be any evidence of collusion unless someone in UEFA let something slip. And that isn't likely to happen with the new regime just taking power, everyone will want to stay on the Little Corporal's good side.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories though and I believe the ref had a bad game. But it does seem odd that such a low profile ref was chosen for the final....