A Different England

[Kenneth]

Glen Johnson will still be young enough then, and infinitely better than that pile of ****e Onuoha.

Others will still be young enough too, the likes of Joe Cole and Milner.

Johnson may have learned how to defend by then too, maybe.

[Kenneth]

barry might still be around he isnt that old is he?

Oh good.

[Craig_H]

Johnson may have learned how to defend by then too, maybe.

He he....i thought someone may say something like that.

I felt a bit sorry for him yesterday, he got completely hung out to dry by the wandering Terry & Upson for that 2nd goal. And Barry should've brought Ozil down by the touchline for the 4th. He wouldnt have gone for that, 50 yards from goal and with Ashley Cole goal-side and in position.

[SB]

As long as Woy the boy is in charge I couldn't give a stuff who's in the team.

[The_weatherman]

So now we've witnessed the utter shambles that is Engerland 2010, we must look forward to 2012 and 2014. It is clear to see that there are a number of shortcomings to the approach, mentality and technique displayed over the 4 matches.

For me, the biggest problem is that we look tired. One could argue that a successful Premier League team has a lot of games to play including league and tournament. Up to 60 games for some players! But then the Premier League is made up of a lot of foreign players, many of which are playing in this years World Cup and they look strong and effervescent. Tevez comes to mind.

No, for me the tiredness is the kind displayed when your partner reminds you that you still haven't gotten round to cleaning the BBQ or build that shelving unit.

Another thing on display is our lack of technique. Simple passes bounced off the players as though they were wearing clown shoes. No one was running to make themselves available for a forward or side pass to move the ball forward. Dribbling was non existent. Why is Milner worth £30m? Surely that would make Kuyt worth the same?

I'm trying to think of English players who could represent a different England, one which extols the virtue of technique over percentages.

Which players come to mind for you?

Ashley Young?
Jack Wilshere?

Not an England supporter but there were a couple of things that struck me. Gerrard should be played centrally, England should deploy similar tactics to Liverpool and the mentality of the players seems all wrong.

Gerrard or Lampard should be playing off Rooney, if it means dropping one of them fine, it's not about them.

I thing England have got decent players and they could fit well in a 4-2-3-1, Defoe is not a World Cup winning striker, neither is Heskey for that matter. The team was leaving too many open spaces due to the formation IMO.

The team seems to full of barons, Terry, Gerrard, Lampard seem to be worst of the bunch, they are unproffessional and think they are above the manager, be that at club or national level.

[Kenneth]

Not an England supporter but there were a couple of things that struck me. Gerrard should be played centrally, England should deploy similar tactics to Liverpool and the mentality of the players seems all wrong.

Gerrard or Lampard should be playing off Rooney, if it means dropping one of them fine, it's not about them.

I thing England have got decent players and they could fit well in a 4-2-3-1, Defoe is not a World Cup winning striker, neither is Heskey for that matter. The team was leaving too many open spaces due to the formation IMO.

The team seems to full of barons, Terry, Gerrard, Lampard seem to be worst of the bunch, they are unproffessional and think they are above the manager, be that at club or national level.

I think that struck everybody but Fabio.

I really want to know what was wrong with Joe Cole which stopped Fabio playing him on the left. He brought SWP on to play on the left at one point FFS.

[dww]

No, for me the tiredness is the kind displayed when your partner reminds you that you still haven't gotten round to cleaning the BBQ or build that shelving unit.

Another thing on display is our lack of technique. Simple passes bounced off the players as though they were wearing clown shoes. No one was running to make themselves available for a forward or side pass to move the ball forward. Dribbling was non existent. Why is Milner worth £30m? Surely that would make Kuyt worth the same?

I'm trying to think of English players who could represent a different England, one which extols the virtue of technique over percentages.

Which players come to mind for you?

Ashley Young?
Jack Wilshere?

I think the percentages/technique dichotomy is a false one - better technique almost always leads to better percentages.

I think the main problem for England is a lack of tactical intelligence, patience and ability to play out from deep areas. In nearly all regards it was a huge blow that Ferdinand was not fit for the tournament.

The 3rd German goal was symptomatic of the problems with the England team - central freekick a long way out, Lampard over it (who is only ever going to shoot) - Why is no one behind him? The break was more or less invited. It's not even a purely defensive move - players deep offer added chances of continuing the attack if the ball comes of the wall and give depth to the attack if a longer period of possession is resultant.

I think the German team in many ways offers lessons for us. Schweinsteiger's successful conversion to a defensive midfielder for example. The reason he succeeds well there is the way he sees the game, his intelligent movement and strong technique. I think some of these things come from him being a converted forward rather than a defender (like Barry) - potentially the best English candidate for such a switch in my mind would be Milner. Ironically as a converted defender I think that Barry needs a more defensive player alongside him to get the best out of him.

It's far from clear if there are any players around who fit the bill for what the England team needs. I think though we should look to have a team setup that is about developing a style closer to that of the other big nations - with more patience and short passing - rather than trying to fit the best players into a team for today. It would mean a move to a bold youth based selection policy much like has occurred with Germany.

[Fernandinho]

yeah, i think the side need a lot of things at the moment and you begin to realise just how lacking the english squad is for a general world powerhouse, the team lacked pace through the middle of the pitch which i think is essential. Every team needs that one guy who can just run around like a crazy man all day (masch) while still possessing quality as a CM. Playing people in their natural position is essential, gives balance to the squad. I tihnk Capello struggled with the fact that he may have to leave high quality players home in order to take people in their natural position too.

[PTP]

Not an England supporter but there were a couple of things that struck me. Gerrard should be played centrally, England should deploy similar tactics to Liverpool and the mentality of the players seems all wrong.

Gerrard or Lampard should be playing off Rooney, if it means dropping one of them fine, it's not about them.

I thing England have got decent players and they could fit well in a 4-2-3-1, Defoe is not a World Cup winning striker, neither is Heskey for that matter. The team was leaving too many open spaces due to the formation IMO.

The team seems to full of barons, Terry, Gerrard, Lampard seem to be worst of the bunch, they are unproffessional and think they are above the manager, be that at club or national level.

good post - couldnt' agree more. We have some great players but we have a **** team........And england have always seemed to struggle to change that mentality - i really thought when capello said he was going to pick the in form and fit players that would be the case....he didn't, when it came down to it - he bottled it.

Firstly, as just mentioned in the other thread - Not taking adam johnson was criminal. I felt a young confident fresh face in the squad might have given every a bit of lift - then the farce with ferdinand and king - both of who have struggled for ages with injuries, ok maybe gamble on one but not both. They should have realised ages ago there was an issue there and had a proper back up plan.

Then playing gerrard out of position was shocking. Someone somewhere has to move/change. If gareth barry is so important to the team, play him and gerrard in the middle and drop lampard - if lampard is too important then change the shape and play gerrard off rooney - don't stick gerrard out on the left ****ing side of midfield.

Then up front, what the **** happened here.... Wayne rooney was ****ing shocking - If he is injured, have some bollocks and don't play him, if he is playing ****, have some bollocks and drop him. - Poor peter crouch, he has a unreal goalscoring record and international level - time and again we have seem both in europe or at internationals teams struggle with crouch.

[Craig_H]

I think the percentages/technique dichotomy is a false one - better technique almost always leads to better percentages.

I think the main problem for England is a lack of tactical intelligence, patience and ability to play out from deep areas. In nearly all regards it was a huge blow that Ferdinand was not fit for the tournament.

The 3rd German goal was symptomatic of the problems with the England team - central freekick a long way out, Lampard over it (who is only ever going to shoot) - Why is no one behind him? The break was more or less invited. It's not even a purely defensive move - players deep offer added chances of continuing the attack if the ball comes of the wall and give depth to the attack if a longer period of possession is resultant.

I think the German team in many ways offers lessons for us. Schweinsteiger's successful conversion to a defensive midfielder for example. The reason he succeeds well there is the way he sees the game, his intelligent movement and strong technique. I think some of these things come from him being a converted forward rather than a defender (like Barry) - potentially the best English candidate for such a switch in my mind would be Milner. Ironically as a converted defender I think that Barry needs a more defensive player alongside him to get the best out of him.

It's far from clear if there are any players around who fit the bill for what the England team needs. I think though we should look to have a team setup that is about developing a style closer to that of the other big nations - with more patience and short passing - rather than trying to fit the best players into a team for today. It would mean a move to a bold youth based selection policy much like has occurred with Germany.

Good post, very much highlights the areas of failure.

Totally agree about the short passing and patience, and this hit me within the first 10 mins yesterday. It's all about desperation and desire from england, but without intelligence and thought. When Germany had possession in their own half, and there wasnt a penetrating or forward ball on, they just played it short, kept it and kept patient.

On the contrary, england kept playing direct 'killer' balls, when there was nothing on - and consequently kept giving the ball away. This was the reason why Germany threatened early on and england were completely pegged back, because everytime england had it, Rooney and Defoe were isolated and asked to win impossible long balls, where they were totally outnumbered. Germany did it differently, with intelligent short balls, gradually advancing up the field in numbers and finding themselves with the ball in advanced areas, and players in support of the man on the ball, so he had a good pass available. And it got them their 2nd goal. And arguably their 3rd and 4th too.

[Kenneth]

good post - couldnt' agree more. We have some great players but we have a **** team........And england have always seemed to struggle to change that mentality - i really thought when capello said he was going to pick the in form and fit players that would be the case....he didn't, when it came down to it - he bottled it.

Firstly, as just mentioned in the other thread - Not taking adam johnson was criminal. I felt a young confident fresh face in the squad might have given every a bit of lift - then the farce with ferdinand and king - both of who have struggled for ages with injuries, ok maybe gamble on one but not both. They should have realised ages ago there was an issue there and had a proper back up plan.

Then playing gerrard out of position was shocking. Someone somewhere has to move/change. If gareth barry is so important to the team, play him and gerrard in the middle and drop lampard - if lampard is too important then change the shape and play gerrard off rooney - don't stick gerrard out on the left ****ing side of midfield.

Then up front, what the **** happened here.... Wayne rooney was ****ing shocking - If he is injured, have some bollocks and don't play him, if he is playing ****, have some bollocks and drop him. - Poor peter crouch, he has a unreal goalscoring record and international level - time and again we have seem both in europe or at internationals teams struggle with crouch.

If gareth barry is so important to the team, we're ****ed from the start.

Agree about Crouch. Heskey picked ahead of him yet again.

[Fernandinho]

Good post, very much highlights the areas of failure.

Totally agree about the short passing and patience, and this hit me within the first 10 mins yesterday. It's all about desperation and desire from england, but without intelligence and thought. When Germany had possession in their own half, and there wasnt a penetrating or forward ball on, they just played it short, kept it and kept patient.

On the contrary, england kept playing direct 'killer' balls, when there was nothing on - and consequently kept giving the ball away. This was the reason why Germany threatened early on and england were completely pegged back, because everytime england had it, Rooney and Defoe were isolated and asked to win impossible long balls, where they were totally outnumbered. Germany did it differently, with intelligent short balls, gradually advancing up the field in numbers and finding themselves with the ball in advanced areas, and players in support of the man on the ball, so he had a good pass available. And it got them their 2nd goal. And arguably their 3rd and 4th too.

so much of the build up play can come right down to fitness and pace. It doesnt matter what level of football you play but if the other team is faster and can run for longer periods of time you are always going to struggle. The pace and move game is physically draining on both attacking and defending teams and the German's greater fitness was as much the problem as the English failures.

[Craig_H]

so much of the build up play can come right down to fitness and pace. It doesnt matter what level of football you play but if the other team is faster and can run for longer periods of time you are always going to struggle. The pace and move game is physically draining on both attacking and defending teams and the German's greater fitness was as much the problem as the English failures.

There's no logical reason why the germans should be that much fitter than the english though.

The fundamental problem for me, was that the germans played with their brains, while england played with their hearts.

[Fernandinho]

There's no logical reason why the germans should be that much fitter than the english though.

The fundamental problem for me, was that the germans played with their brains, while england played with their hearts.

True, but when you saw that goal from the Lampard free kick, ignoring the Barry vs Ozil, did you notice how many other players even attempted to get back and mark up, Lampard who took the kick was the only person who chased back other then the defenders already behind him... Is what you are saying that maybe its that the English players were running around like headless chickens wasting energy while the Germans conserved it and picked the right times to attack with effieciency and pace like any German does

[Craig_H]

I was meaning more about their use of the ball when in possession.

But with that goal you mention, what struck me with Barry, is that he seemed to be running diagonally towards the ball, while Ozil had a 'straight line' run at the ball - so obviously while Barry had a head start of about 8 yards, he also had a longer distance to cover, to reach the ball.

What he should've done, was just foul Ozil down by the touchline.