A Different England

[Mattshark]

They do. They come into every tournament seemingly with an unheralded side and perform well nearly all the time. Must be a factor.

But many other nations have a winter break too though and did nothing (France and Italy for example).

[Rich]

They do. They come into every tournament seemingly with an unheralded side and perform well nearly all the time. Must be a factor.

Let's not forget that there's a lot more Germans playing in their top division than we have have Englishmen playing in ours. Plus about 10 times the number of top grade coaches throughout the country. Plus the manager has been heavily involved with the national side of 6 years.

[Craig_H]

They do. They come into every tournament seemingly with an unheralded side and perform well nearly all the time. Must be a factor.

Much of it is in their mentality too. They're just extremely strong minded and have enormous strength of character. It's not just in their footballers, it's their way of life over there. They take important things very seriously, whereas in this country, much of what is done has the whole 'have a laugh' mindset attached to it. They have a superb ability to gather their thoughts when under pressure and rarely lose their composure, panic, or let their emotions dictate what they do.

The entire opposite of the england team.

[Mattshark]

Andy Gray is on SSN saying "there HAS to be an Englishman in charge, someone like Shearer, Hoddle....or Roy Hodgson with David Beckham as his no.2"

Well which manager for England has a better win percentage than Capello? None, second best is Ericsson.

[Rich]

Dont get into a tantrum over it.

It's not unlike people simply dismissing zonal marking as something which 'doesnt work' when that's completely ignoring how it's been implemented.

Any 'recognised' football system, when implemented properly with the right players, can work.

Surely you would see that?

Tactics evolve though. I believe the 4231 variations we're seeing now are derived from the old 532 formations. The main difference being instead of a third centrehalf, it is at least one defensive midfielder sitting deeper. Width in both 4231 and 532 is meant to come primarily from the wing back/full back area.

[Neil Young]

Dont get into a tantrum over it.

It's not unlike people simply dismissing zonal marking as something which 'doesnt work' when that's completely ignoring how it's been implemented.

Any 'recognised' football system, when implemented properly with the right players, can work.

Surely you would see that?

I'm bored, not annoyed.

Save the similes - they're flawed too.

[dww]

Think NY is spot on. All the major forces play a similar 4-2-3-1 formation, with three centrally - whether that's two sitting or one sitting, two wide forwards, and one through the centre.

We actually have the benefit of most of our big teams playing a similar way - yet for some crazy reason we're using an outdated 4-4-2 system and then shoehorning players into unfamiliar positions. Madness.

The nail in the coffin yesterday was having Barry and Lampard (neither defensive in the purest sense) playing in a midfield two - then throw in the fact that neither has pace and England are on a hiding to nothing.

What's obvious to me is that 4-2-3-1 is the dominant formation so let's go with it.

In qualifying I though the system looked a lot like a variant of 4-2-3-1. The problem at the tournament was a lack of form/fitness from Rooney and Barry two players who were key to the system. Barry is a makeshift player in the system admittedly but there were no genuine alternatives (even looking beyond the selected squad).

In order to get the best out of our top players we need some players who are better at doing the simple jobs that allow them to play better when at club level.

The other problem is a lack of natural width which makes it harder for Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard and Barry to shine. All our attacks tend to be concentrated in a narrow, central strip far too often. As was the case for us (Liverpool) last season taking the option of a winger out of the equation in midfield and hoping for width from fullbacks rarely works and certainly requires the midfield to be much better at circulating and recycling the ball than either the last years England or Liverpool units.

I think saveferris mentioned elsewhere that he felt merely taking Johnson to provide width would have solved that problem. I'm not so sure - I think you really need to have multiple options. I guess that Lennon to some degree offers a solution but his crossing has returned to his previous seasons second rate standard and his decision making too has been woeful when he was on the pitch.

I don't think it helps that many of our players appear to be a bit dim. Not necessarily in an abstract intellectual way but also in terms of instinctive (or learned) understanding of tactics and positioning.

[Mattshark]

Let's not forget that there's a lot more Germans playing in their top division than we have have Englishmen playing in ours. Plus about 10 times the number of top grade coaches throughout the country. Plus the manager has been heavily involved with the national side of 6 years.

It takes 3 times a long to get coaching badges. We have far fewer coaches (around 33000 to 1000) and they are far better trained.

[Craig_H]

Tactics evolve though. I believe the 4231 variations we're seeing now are derived from the old 532 formations. The main difference being instead of a third centrehalf, it is at least one defensive midfielder sitting deeper. Width in both 4231 and 532 is meant to come primarily from the wing back/full back area.

I agree with you, but i honestly dont think there's the sufficient level of quality available for england, in the positions for the '3' in that 4231 formation. Certainly not in the non-central one, anyway.

Another point, which is far more general and seems to have been the case for eons, is that english players just arent as technically sound as the likes of the Spanish, even the Italians, and certainly the germans and probably the dutch too (not to mention Brazil and Argentina ). Their touch isnt quite as good and their ability to be comfortable with the ball at their feet, and pass it properly, just seems lacking.

Germany were an excellent example yesterday, of a group of players who know how to control the ball and how to pass it well - same with Argentina too. Compare how they play short, controlled passes and dont waste possession easily, with england, who punt it aimlessly forward on a frequent basis.

[Neil Young]

In qualifying I though the system looked a lot like a variant of 4-2-3-1. The problem at the tournament was a lack of form/fitness from Rooney and Barry two players who were key to the system. Barry is a makeshift player in the system admittedly but there were no genuine alternatives (even looking beyond the selected squad).

In order to get the best out of our top players we need some players who are better at doing the simple jobs that allow them to play better when at club level.

The other problem is a lack of natural width which makes it harder for Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard and Barry to shine. All our attacks tend to be concentrated in a narrow, central strip far too often. As was the case for us (Liverpool) last season taking the option of a winger out of the equation inmidfield and hoping for width from fullbacks rarely works and certainly requires the midfield to be much better at circulating and recycling the ball than either the last years England or Liverpool units.

I think saveferris mentioned elsewhere that he felt merely taking Johnson to provide width would have solved that problem. I'm not so sure - I think you really need to have multiple options. I guess that Lennon to some degree offers a solution but his crossing has returned to his previous seasons second rate standard and his decision making too has been woeful when he was on the pitch.

I don't think it helps that many of our players appear to be a bit dim. Not necessarily in an abstract intellectual way but also in terms of instinctive (or learned) understanding of tactics and positioning.

I agree. Especially the last bit.

[Craig_H]

I'm bored, not annoyed.

Save the similes - they're flawed too.

So basically, you cant handle someone daring to disagree with you.

Fair enough. Be annoyed then.

[Neil Young]

So basically, you cant handle someone daring to disagree with you.

Fair enough. Be annoyed then.

Yes, that's it. Your insight into everything is really profound.

The fact is I told I was bored not annoyed and you have so much respect for a fellow poster you choose to ignore what I wrote, preferring your own psychoanalysis from a distance.

Projection is a real bitch at times.

[Rich]

I agree with you, but i honestly dont think there's the sufficient level of quality available for england, in the positions for the '3' in that 4231 formation. Certainly not in the non-central one, anyway.

Another point, which is far more general and seems to have been the case for eons, is that english players just arent as technically sound as the likes of the Spanish, even the Italians, and certainly the germans and probably the dutch too (not to mention Brazil and Argentina ). Their touch isnt quite as good and their ability to be comfortable with the ball at their feet, and pass it properly, just seems lacking.

Germany were an excellent example yesterday, of a group of players who know how to control the ball and how to pass it well - same with Argentina too. Compare how they play short, controlled passes and dont waste possession easily, with england, who punt it aimlessly forward on a frequent basis.

That is a great point, you're right. Whether its pressure, training, lack of skill or whatever not enough of our players a truly comfortable with the ball.

Even some of our more gifted players, Rooney for example, were struggling with their control.

[paulg]

If you have 3 centre backs

We didn't have 3 fit centre backs. What was the point in taking King?

[Fernandinho]

maybe england should try and re-focus from being a powerhouse playing really open attacking football to doing the approach everyone would have and play a really compact robust play with slow build up, playing on the counter and set pieces, lots of the smaller nations do well at it, i know its biased but Australia apply a system like that where the starting 11 is pretty much guaranteed and has been for the last few years, every player knows their job and everyone elses job and the team plays as a team where the added parts are greater then the individual