A Different England

[dww]

I think the qualities of the back three in a system that deploys them are far greater than those on the 3 in a 4-2-3-1 type system. the 4-2-3-1 is also closely related to something like a 4-3-3 with both frequently based around a triangle of central midfielders.

I think a 5-3-2 type system exacerbates the problem of relying on the fullbacks for width rather than solving it. They are now the sole defense of the the wings and are often become pushed back by teams with wingers of their own leaving a flat team shape which struggles to get out of it's own half.

If we had the personnel we could look to some of the Italian teams I suppose who employ two passing CBs and one man marker which would give a different set of out balls. This could possibly allow the midfield three to go wide rather than come back to recieve the ball. That might get the most of out of players like Milner, Barry and Gerrard. I think however though that a/ we lack the passing defenders and b/ that the retraining of players to a completely different defensive framework for internationals would make it hard to implement in reality.

[paulg]

That is a great point, you're right. Whether its pressure, training, lack of skill or whatever not enough of our players a truly comfortable with the ball.

Even some of our more gifted players, Rooney for example, we're struggling with their control.

This is one of the points Trevor Brooking has made. Our kids learn about winning and running about, the Italians, Dutch, Brazilians, etc learn about technique, touch, control before even learning about positioning. It's about enjoying the game and learning the game.
We put winning above everything. Ironic really, seeing as our top team never win a thing.

[Craig_H]

This is one of the points Trevor Brooking has made. Our kids learn about winning and running about, the Italians, Dutch, Brazilians, etc learn about technique, touch, control before even learning about positioning. It's about enjoying the game and learning the game.
We put winning above everything. Ironic really, seeing as our top team never win a thing.

Yeah, that's a clear problem.

Things like ball control and technique have to be honed at a young age, or the player will never get it.

It has to be done as kids. And clearly, it's not happening.

The other problem is that fixing this issue is so long-winded and will take an entire generation of footballers, before you see it being solved. And the english mentality is far too lazy for someone in authority to seriously develop a system which wont bear fruit for maybe 15 or 20 years.

[dww]

I agree with you, but i honestly dont think there's the sufficient level of quality available for england, in the positions for the '3' in that 4231 formation. Certainly not in the non-central one, anyway.

Another point, which is far more general and seems to have been the case for eons, is that english players just arent as technically sound as the likes of the Spanish, even the Italians, and certainly the germans and probably the dutch too (not to mention Brazil and Argentina ). Their touch isnt quite as good and their ability to be comfortable with the ball at their feet, and pass it properly, just seems lacking.

Germany were an excellent example yesterday, of a group of players who know how to control the ball and how to pass it well - same with Argentina too. Compare how they play short, controlled passes and dont waste possession easily, with england, who punt it aimlessly forward on a frequent basis.

That is a great point, you're right. Whether its pressure, training, lack of skill or whatever not enough of our players a truly comfortable with the ball.

This is certainly true (and pretty much in agreement with what Neil said earlier about us not having good enough players if you ask me). It will be interesting to see how things evolve in the future as many of the clubs have invested big money in academies (and fought hard to keep the FA out of the development programs) and the under age teams are performing better (without resorting to having the biggest/hardest players). The obvious example is Arsenal who are now starting to produce players in the Wenger mould from their own youth system.

Even some of our more gifted players, Rooney for example, we're struggling with their control.

We also seem to adapt to new conditions (and balls) more slowly than other national teams. I wonder how much of it is down to a lack of personal desire to train improve - the best players always seem to be rumoured to do extra practise on free kicks etc.

It was notable that the only England player who looked to have got the hang of the new ball was Lampard and that took until the Germany game. I think it was the first game in a major tournament when I've seen him consistently shoot at a height beneath the crossbar.

[Craig_H]

Yeah but what are they doing with their academies? They're signing 15 year old foreign kids and putting them into the academies

[Shaggy]

Capello says the FA/Dave Richards have said they need "two weeks to decide" his future. Capello wants to stay.

[red g]

i wonder if hodgson will want to wait then.......

they may sound ou hodgson and redknapp over next couple of weeks.

[red g]

on another note, stevie gerrard has said hope he stays he is a top class manager? WTF??

he has played him out of position constantly and yet Rafa gets sacked and he made up a better player and not even 1 word of sorrow as far as i am aware

[Fernandinho]

stevie had to concentrate on the world cup but, dont forget during the WC that most LFC players completely forget who they play for, now that its over they have time to reflect.

[Taxi]

The only way we're going to get where we need to be is to limit the amount of foreign players in the Premiership. We need to start from scratch and rebuild with a view to 10 or 15 years time. As already pointed out by Craig, the acadamies are full of kids from all over the world, so the youth teams also need to have a cap. Look at the Bundesliga, teams full of home grown players and the germans always do well. Its not rocket science.

[Mattshark]

The only way we're going to get where we need to be is to limit the amount of foreign players in the Premiership. We need to start from scratch and rebuild with a view to 10 or 15 years time. As already pointed out by Craig, the acadamies are full of kids from all over the world, so the youth teams also need to have a cap. Look at the Bundesliga, teams full of home grown players and the germans always do well. Its not rocket science.

Until we change the training system it won't make a difference, that is the problem they have 330 times the number of coaches we do and they are trained to a far higher standard. It is nothing to do with the foreign players in the league, they are a symptom, not a cause.

[Taxi]

Until we change the training system it won't make a difference, that is the problem they have 330 times the number of coaches we do and they are trained to a far higher standard. It is nothing to do with the foreign players in the league, they are a symptom, not a cause.

Completely disagree.

[Mattshark]

Completely disagree.

Just curious to why?
As far as I can see, our players lose out because they cost twice as much and are half as good as many imported players, they play then in lower leagues and don't show anything to suggest they can play at a higher level.

Bundesliga has plenty of foreign players, but their massively better coaching system means that when they get young players, they can actually play football. Ours generally are far poorer.

[Kenneth]

Buying foreign players is one thing. Filling club academies with teenagers from around the world is what ****s up English players. There is not enough space for them in PL academies so they end up at second tier clue which don't have the training expertise or facilities. A ban on all clubs taking anyone from abroad under 16 would have a massive impact. It would also have a huge impact on the big clubs like us so would never happen in a million years. The current situation of legalised child trafficking by europe's top clubs is a disgrace really. Drag a kid to the uk from Bolivia or somewhere and release them a few years later. Thnk of the impact on the individual and their family. We're ****ing scum.

[Kenneth]

And capello is going nowhere IMO. The FA are just waiting two weeks for everyone to calm down before announcing it.